LRB5 Dark Elves FAQ

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:46 pm

Witch Elves start with Dodge. Did you mean Block?

Shadowing + MA8 = fair competitor for Diving Tackle... if you squint. Worthwhile as a #3 skill if you can get the player Block and/or Dodge, plus Side Step, and he doesn't have Jump Up. Even still, I'd probably push it behind Tackle unless I had to constantly deal with heavy Humans or other critters that had more MA6/7 than Dodge and couldn't fight their way out of everything. Off the top of my head, that's two of the 24 team races (Humans and sometimes Norse), plus any High/Pro elf team that snubs Dodge, and maybe any team that's able/likely to take Two Heads on a player without A access, like Chaos.

On an MA 7 piece, Shadowing is seriously underpowered: Diving Tackle is categorically better*. On a piece with Jump Up, that's doubly true.

That said, I wouldn't take Diving Tackle on my first two skills with a Witch, or Shadowing ever (especially on a double). To use Shadowing, you have to leave her standing in a Tackle Zone.

* Prehensile Tail changes the math at MA7, but that's neither here nor there. It's also a 4th or 5th selection if you have to take PT with a skill... and then you'd have to take it over a doubles selection unless you're Underworld or have a stat bump, which would make it a 5th skill at best. Not to mention, PT+Shadowing is merely a slightly safer version of Diving Tackle. It's PT/Blodge/Tackle/SS that's really pinning people down.

thecheat231 · Post by **thecheat231** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:58 pm

mattgslater wrote:Witch Elves start with Dodge. Did you mean Block?

On an MA 7 piece, Shadowing is seriously underpowered: Diving Tackle is categorically better*. On a piece with Jump Up, that's doubly true.

That said, I wouldn't take Diving Tackle on my first two skills with a Witch, or Shadowing ever (especially on a double). To use Shadowing, you have to leave her standing in a Tackle Zone.

.

Yes, she has dodge, block, frenzy, jump up and shadowing now.

And ya, I admit it's probably a poor choice...lol
But she seem's to always be in the heart of the fighting, maybe that's a bad place to be with orcs and chaos. But, that's where tactics take her, such as blitzing a ball carrying goblin out of a cage. The other places she ends up are tailing enemy runners, so I figured I'd get some use out of it, but yeah. Probably not as good as Mighty Blow, or side step or whatever else PROs take.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:06 pm

See, I think you'll find that your "flair" skill just collects dust. When was the last time you saw an Orc dodge? I average just over 0.9 dodges per game with an Orc team (fielding an average of about 1/5 of a Goblin -- I just learned how cool they are on Orcs about 5 years ago, after most of my city's BB salad days)... even if it were 1.1 for a coach with a different style, you'd still have to game really well to use Shadowing twice in a 10-game span. If you can consistently mark a Goblin with her, it'll get a little use, but I highly doubt that without Tackle she can change a team's strategy much, and you have to be able to stay on that Goblin, which against Orcs is very difficult.

I guess you could use her to mark Goblins, but even then I'd say take Tackle first, and if you really do face enough Stunty players to justify Shadowing, then she'll go up really fast.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:35 pm

2 points-

1) As I recall, even in LRB 4, Shadowing was a skill, not a trait. So you don't need doubles to get it.

2) Shadowing with MA 7 is not an awful choice the way Diving Catch or Break Tackle might have been. But Tackle and Diving Tackle are both more useful for the piece. As a matter of fact, Diving Tackle, aside from the unlikely risk of fouls, is an awesome Witch Elf skill because of it's combo with Jump Up.

3) To make the most of your Shadowing, I think Side Step is awesome. Actually, Side Step also makes Frenzy better... I'd recommend that as your next skill.

Catt · Post by **Catt** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:07 am

Hi this is my first post but I am running a DE team in a local league and just wanted to share my expriences of them and defend the usefulness of assassins.

I am very lucky I guess and my assassin has gained 2 MVPs, caused a casualty in a defensive block, and got a completion. I gave him block as his first skill rather than dodge.

Assassins get targeted so heavily by my opponents but block gives them pause for thought. It also helps enable the assassin to get in close without being knocked to the ground quite so easily.

I had mine from the get go and in early games he was often my last dtched attempt at sacking the ball carrier as he doesn't have to worry about assists. Now he's taken a back seat to my block doding leaping blitzer.

Against av7 players he's very effective and can turn a game for me as I still only have two rerolls after 7 games (an unfortunate death put a dent in my coffers) being able to perform on 'block' action without risking a turnover is actually quite useful.

Runners can be very useful as dump-off combined with nerves of steel is superb - especially if you can get a second runner alongside also with NoS. Add in leap and its tough to get the ball off them. But they are a little vulnerable. However fumbling a dump-off is almost as bad as being knocked over as your opponent has still freed up the ball. Dodge helps the runner stay on his feet true but NoS helps you keep possession of the ball.

grampyseer · Post by **grampyseer** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:50 pm

Jural probably means 7 linemen, 3 Blitzers, 1 Witch, 2TRR, right? 'Cause otherwise it's 10 players. I really like that lineup.

This is a very strong dark elf lineup. It performs well early, and early performance is a bit of a problem with darkies...they tend to be late starters.

I've had an assassin for 15 games now, and he's accomplished very little.

I wouldn't waste space on my initial roster with one.

FireBomb · Post by **FireBomb** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:13 pm

When I built my dark elf team (last week), I bought an assassin hoping the piece would be useful for two specific purposes (maybe three).

1. Neutralize other elf team pieces that have blodge. I’m thinking specifically of killing as many wardancers as possible. It would seem the assassin might be good at this. Maybe?

2. Suicidal attacks on Big Guys with AV8ish. While I’ve not played a Chaos Team yet, I can envision the Minotaur ripping the Dark Elf team a new flower of an undescript sort. To get a decent block you would need two, maybe three assists. An Assassin, however, could try to knock out the Minataur single handed (and likely die in the process). But if you’re getting your ass handed to you, maybe you have no other choice. Maybe?

3. Shadow potential catchers from slower teams. I’m thinking an Orc Blitzer and the like. With the Assassin having a MV6 might be the only opponent against which Shadow is successful. But staying that close with an AV7 is likely to get the Assassin killed. Maybe?

My main problem with the Assassin, beside the deficiencies mentioned in previous posts which I agree with, is the lack of opportunity to gain SPP. With a MA6 and AV7 the Assassin is a weak piece. Not the best choice for scoring touchdowns. Can’t block for a dam without using Stab, so limited CAS points. Really the only way for Assassins to gain SPP is causing CAS using Stab, but the rules forbid this. So, I would like to put in a plug to changing that rule in the upcoming release of LBBR6.0. When you look at the opportunities for the Assassin to use Stab during the course of a game, it’s not that many. It would seem comparable to, maybe a little less, than that of a Big Guy from a bashing team. The Assassin could be the Dark Elf equivalent of a Big Guy, if the piece could get SPP for causing CAS. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn’t.

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:43 pm

So, I would like to put in a plug to changing that rule in the upcoming release of LBBR6.0.

+1

Or, alternatively, make Dirty Player affect the Stab roll as well as fouls (this would also make the inducement card Stiletto make more sense).

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:30 pm

I use my assasin differently depending on what team I'm playing. Against high AV teams he is the thrower(Quick passes only and only if I have a reroll). This is a good way of getting him SPP's. I also block with him quite alot (potential CAS SPP's).

The only time I really use stab is against teams with lots of AV7 or less. Stab is'nt that usefull IMO. I think people expect to much from him.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:36 am

Stab is literally a no risk move (no risk of turnover.) I don't think it should earn SPP's. Besides, this is the sort of thing which has no chance of making LRB 6.0, according to the BBRC.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:25 am

The problem with the Assassin is that he's overpriced. He should be either 80k, or MA7 and 100k.

Or give Stab SPP potential. No, it doesn't give you a chance of turnover, but it most certainly does come with a drawback: it's highly likely to fail and if it doesn't work it doesn't give you a push, meaning you're up on whoever you tried to stab and you totally wasted an action. So if you don't mark up on the right guy with the right added skills, Stab sucks and will often be useless. After all, a failed end-of-turn pass gives you a situational disadvantage without costing any actions, much like a failed Stab (at any point in the turn).

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

It would make sense if he was a little cheaper but theirs no way he should get SPP's for stabbing. It would be to easy.

Gaixo · Post by **Gaixo** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:23 am

Just because there's no risk of immediate knockdown? It seems to me that an AV7 player using stab is taking about as much risk as an AV9 big guy taking a two or three die block.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:08 pm

Gaixo wrote:Just because there's no risk of immediate knockdown? It seems to me that an AV7 player using stab is taking about as much risk as an AV9 big guy taking a two or three die block.

The knockdown is a bit irrelevant, the real risk is the turnover, of which there is none whatsoever.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:19 pm

There's also no risk of turnover on an end-of-turn action. If you handle all your movement, blocking, etc., then with your last act you shovel the ball off to a guy who's already moved, the turnover means nothing. In that case, you are not taking any bigger risk than if you leave your AV7 guy (presumably without Block) up against a Stab-worthy opponent, and is worth a much larger share of SPP on average: Stab is worth somewhere between 2/36 (AV9) and 5/36 (AV7) SPP, while an unskilled elf QP is 25/36 SPP. A 2d block without Block (or against Block) yields an 8/9 of negating an opposing block, if that's your only objective. Stab yields at best a 5/12 to do the same, and often a lot less. And because Stab frequently leads to falling down on the opponent's turn, Stab doesn't get much use by comparison to existing SPP gimmicks.

Likewise, if you make a 3d block with Block, the risk of turnover is negligible, and if you make a 2d block with Block and a TRR then the risk of turnover can be considered really a risk of a burned TRR (yes, I've gotten Nuffle's Teats twice in a row before... but it's rare enough to be considered a fluke). But either one can earn you SPPs. An opponent blocking you or passing overhead can also yield SPPs, but can't end your turn. So I don't think "no turnover risk, no SPPs" is a fair call. Rather, turnover risk should be considered one of several factors, along with difficulty and injury hazard. And on actual Stab players (not theoretical Orcs with daggers, but the overpriced AV7 guy), a use of Stab is much more dangerous (to all parties) than a 2d block. So Stab is high injury hazard, medium difficulty (easier to earn SPP than a straight block) and no turnover risk. Definitely a buff, but hardly a game-breaker on a piece that could use a bit of a buff.