Human Blitzer and Thrower with 4 AGI....How to develop?

Glengoyne · Post by **Glengoyne** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:24 pm

I'm a returning Noob. Played Tabletop...then Fumbbl...then TT...Now I'm using the Cyanide Engine to get by BB fix.

I've got a Human team that I'm developing with a defensive bent. My take on humans is they have all of the necessary skills to score...they need help stopping the other guys, and then once they do turn the opponent over, they need to strike quickly and score immediately. As an example, I do things like develop a catcher with strip ball, and fling him carelessly into cages until he dies or develops dauntless.

In any case...my blitzers for this team are as follows;
B1)Guard
B2)Mighty Blow
B3)Guard
B4)+AGI (Was supposed to be MB, but I rolled an 11)

My Blitzers were going to be what I consider plain vanilla. Guard then Stand Firm or Mighty Blow then Piling On...Dodge always on a double. This guy cast that into the wind, he was scheduled for Mighty Blow, but I don't see any synergy there.
How do you make the most of 4 AGI with a human blitzer? I'm thinking offensively, but as I do have a bit of a defensive bent I'm looking at those development paths as well. Definitely Dodge on a double...but that is all I've decided.

My throwers
T1)Nerves of Steel (Dump Off or Accurate next)
T2) +AGI

T1 essentially runs in with a blitzer or two and a catcher to take the ball away and harass the Offense from behind. He is there to pick up the ball in traffic, and move it along.

T2 I was planning to develop with Block , tackle, and maybe even pass block. He would be a defensive back model. Then I rolled a Plus AGI.

So now, I'm curious. Does continuing to mold him into a DB make sense? Should I move Pass Block to the next spot in development to take advantage of his AGI?
Or does the AGI make him too big of a pure offensive threat to waste him on defense?

Glengoyne · Post by **Glengoyne** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:24 am

Following up on my own here.

For the Thrower I'm thinking
+AGI, Safe Throw, Accurate

That makes him an offensive threat roaming in my own backfield.
One question on Doubles...Strong Arm or Dodge?
-I think I have to go dodge, just because it will be useful all over the pitch.
I will probably scrap my plan to have two throwers on both sides of the ball, and keep him off the field when I'm kicking.

My Blitzer is still a little sketchy as far as plans go.
Things I'm considering
First...on a double, I'll go Dodge...he'll be like an elf on steroids.

Other than that I'm looking at in somewhat an order of appeal to me;
Fend: This will hopefully decrease tackle zones and increase the chances he'll have a reasonable dodge to make. Increases survivability.

Tackle: This is just a good skill for a Blitzer. I like knocking down those dodgers.

Mighty Blow: It was my original Plan, and will skill him up faster.

Stand Firm: Run the sidelines, hold his position when hit. Standard Fare and annoying for the opposition.

Juggernaut: He moves folks out of his way. Should Open holes for a blitz into the open field. ?Can I pass after a Blitz with LRB 5? Gotta Look that up.

+AGI, Fend, Stand Firm
-A good high performance skillset for both sides of the ball.
+AGI,Stand Firm, Juggernaut
-Not sure, but I like the flavor
+AGI,Tackle, Stand Firm
-The defensive leaning...I could reverse these, and be happy as well.
+AGI, Tackle, Mighty Blow
- Aggressive with a defensive flavor...this is how I like to play.
+AGI, Fend, Mighty Blow
-Help in the running game, and a steadier stream of SPP.
+AGI, Tackle, Fend or Fend, Tackle
-This one speaks to me. I like Tackle...and I think Fend will help with carrying the ball.

Glengoyne · Post by **Glengoyne** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:12 am

Heck, While I've got a thread up looking for feedback. I think I'll throw my Catcher plans out there as well.
Bold=already selected
C1) +MA, Block,Side Step
C2)Strip Ball,Dauntless,wrestle
C3)Block, Shadowing, Tackle
C4)Pass Block, Diving Tackle

I don't have Catchers 3 and 4 yet, but I'm adding the third before my next match. The reason I'm looking at four, is that...my catchers get kinda beat up. I want to have subs, and if I'm going to only play one thrower on Defense, then I'm thinking of going to a three catcher defense.

I'm light on Block at this position, but there are just so many options that aren't block.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:22 am

C1) +MA, Block,Side Step

Standard, could consider diving tackle or surefeet to follow..

C2)Strip Ball,Dauntless,wrestle

Wrestle, then daunts, 2die against with wre/stríp works more often than daunts to get even then 1die without wre

C3)Block, Shadowing, Tackle

Very rarely get anything out of shadowing on a S2 piece, means he'll just be minced to meat more often - need SS before shadowing for sure.

C4)Pass Block, Diving Tackle

Very rare to get any mileage out of passblock, can be avoided by positioning or blitzing.

That being said, I would only field C1 and/or C2, not 4 catchers for sure. 4x AV7/Ag3/S2 means a lot of easy targets marked down the field.

For the Thrower I'm thinking
+AGI, Safe Throw, Accurate
I will probably scrap my plan to have two throwers on both sides of the ball, and keep him off the field when I'm kicking.

I've noticed I get the most out of my +AG when kicking, that's when the ball gets in sticky places where you need the +AG.

+AGI,Tackle, Stand Firm
-The defensive leaning...I could reverse these, and be happy as well.

The blitzer I would go stand firm, then pray for doubles and pick tackle after not rolling them. A Blodge/SF/Tackle will be extremely annoying to remove from the ball, followed by him picking it up and running away with it as well.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:42 am

You should consider Guard on your AG4 guy. Mobile Guard is great, especially on Humans who can get bogged down against Orcs/Chaos.

Glengoyne · Post by **Glengoyne** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:13 pm

C2)Strip Ball,Dauntless,wrestle
Wrestle, then daunts, 2die against with wre/stríp works more often than daunts to get even then 1die without wre

This is good to know. I should have done the math myself. It is funny, but I really like blitzing with this fellow. I do have to admit he has been more effective as a sweeper type, chasing down a play from behind, than the ball hawking backfield blitzer I envisioned.

C3)Block, Shadowing, Tackle
Very rarely get anything out of shadowing on a S2 piece, means he'll just be minced to meat more often - need SS before shadowing for sure.

I was thinking of a DB style player, who could mark an elf or rat in my half of the pitch. It would force the use of a blitz to shake off my shadower rather than blitzing somewhere else on the pitch. Which actually makes your recommendation to go SideStep first all that more reasonable. Do you think SS, Shadow, Tackle would be worthwhile?

Also you recommend Diving Tackle. Do you believe that is more effective at tying down the opposition than Shadow and tackle? My thought is that shadow and tackle force die rolls, and passively frustrate the opponent, Diving Tackle is much more aggressive, but always results in a player down on the pitch. I'm going to have to do some experimentation here.

C4)Pass Block, Diving Tackle
Very rare to get any mileage out of passblock, can be avoided by positioning or blitzing.

I admit that I haven't used Pass Block in some time, but I don't recall it being all that easy to avoid. In fact I think it can force an opponent to chose between throwing to a player guarded by a pass blocker, or a player who is at greater risk for turning the ball over. I'll again have to experiment.

For the Thrower I'm thinking
+AGI, Safe Throw, Accurate
I will probably scrap my plan to have two throwers on both sides of the ball, and keep him off the field when I'm kicking.
I've noticed I get the most out of my +AG when kicking, that's when the ball gets in sticky places where you need the +AG.

A good thought. Perhaps, this thrower follows the development path I started the other thrower on.
+AGI, Nerves of Steel, safe pass, dump off/accurate
The agility does just make him more effective at the role of picking up the ball, and getting out of dangerous areas.

+AGI,Tackle, Stand Firm
-The defensive leaning...I could reverse these, and be happy as well.

The blitzer I would go stand firm, then pray for doubles and pick tackle after not rolling them. A Blodge/SF/Tackle will be extremely annoying to remove from the ball, followed by him picking it up and running away with it as well.

I like the way you think.

Jorgen_CAB · Post by **Jorgen_CAB** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:14 am

+1AG on a Thrower is a goods end and he has the potential for greatness. Usually your first reaction is to make him into a star thrower with Accurate, Safe Throw and Strong Arm etc.. In my opinion he is better used as an all purpose thrower and I would give him. Block, Nerves if Steel, Fend and Dodge on any doubles as his next skills. He is an ideal runner and thrower and can be used defensively to get the ball from the opposing team and secure it for your team quite easily.

A +1AG blitzer is really good on a human team. I always run this player into the opponents backfield where he work his magic. He should be developed as a standard blitzer and obviously dodge is a given on doubles. Any skills such as Guard, Tackle and Stand Firm are good skills. Though I might not put Mighty Blow on him until later because he will do lots of TD for you so casualties are not that important for him. He can use other skills much better.

Otherwise I always go (MB, Guard, Tackle) on by blitzers all of them in different order to spread out the skills among them. I don't find Stand Firm to be that important and I usually don't move along the sidelines that much either.

On your Catchers...

Shadowing is a great skill and since you got +1MA it is even greater, you should also combine it with Diving tackle. I always have a Catcher with Shadowing skill and I always go Shadowing, Block, Side Step. Sure you can block or Blitz him, but you run him aggressively against the ball carrier and you opponent must waste the blitz on him rather on someone more strategic. This give you the edge.
I never have more the three catcher in my team, usually only two. One offensive and one defensive, although both are on the pitch on offense.

They usually look like this...

C1: Shadow/Block/Side Step/Diving Tackle (take no double skills)
C2: Diving Catch/Block/Side Step/Fend (Nerves of Steel on doubles)

The latest experimental rules give you +1 to catch an accurate pass with Diving Catch, that is why I put that skill as the first one on one of the catchers.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:34 am

I prefer Diving Tackle over Shadowing because:
1) DT is an absolute pin, that player is going nowhere unless he takes a BIG risk (or has AG 5, but even then it's rather risky). Shadowing means he probably won't go far but he can move a few squares with not that big a risk. IMO DT is clearly better then shadowing if you want to pin down players.
2) Shadowing depends on movement, and many of the players you'll want to pin (catchers, gutter runners, skinks) also have a very high MA stat making Shadowing not so effective. If you get a -MA injury and already have shadowing that injury hurts twice as hard. DT has no such problems.

Shadowing is better then DT in some aspects though. Shadowing can reposition your player into even more annoying positions.
Shadowing will never cause you to go prone.
But I still like DT better as going prone is almost always worth it. DT is usually a very passive skill: players don't dare to dodge away from a DT player because it's so risky. And when they do it means they're in trouble and it's either a turnover or they don't have anyone to spare to foul you.

I always choose DT over Shadowing and never regretted it. But that said, Shadowing is a very good skill too.

Glengoyne · Post by **Glengoyne** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:40 pm

I've been thinking about the development path for strip ball. The note above about wrestle before dauntless, started me off.

Giving a Rookie strip ball allows him to put the ball on the ground during my turn as follows.
Table-1
two dice opponent chooses -----16 out of 36 results -->44%
one die my choice----------------4 out of 6 results -->66%
two dice my choice---------------32 out of 36 results -->89%

If my opponent doesn't have block, and I consider a both down result that ends my turn to be equivalent to a success then it looks like;
Table-2
two dice opponent chooses -----25 out of 36 results -->69%
one die my choice----------------5 out of 6 results -->83%
two dice my choice---------------35 out of 36 results -->97%

I'd say that skill is more potent than I understood. While single dimensional, it does get the job done.

If I add wrestle as a second skill I get to use Table-2 against ball carriers with Block, and I don't even end my turn. I like rolling on Table-2.

Adding dauntless next will make it more likely that I'm also selecting the die. Chances of success like 83% and 97% are tough to beat.

Sure hands is a pretty effective counter to this skill. You simply have to be able to put a sure handed ball carrier on the ground. Our player with strip ball and wrestle performs as follows, even against a blocker.
Table-3
two dice opponent chooses ----- 9 out of 36 results -->25%
one die my choice---------------- 3 out of 6 results -->50%
two dice my choice---------------27 out of 36 results -->75%

Assuming the worst case ball carrier, a blodger with sure-hands, it looks like this.
Table-4
two dice opponent chooses ----- 4 out of 36 results -->11%
one die my choice---------------- 2 out of 6 results -->33%
two dice my choice---------------20 out of 36 results -->56%

Adding Tackle lets us roll against a sure handed blodger on table-3, neutralizing Dodge.

This makes it pretty conclusive for me I’ll be developing my suicide catcher blitzers in this order.
strip ball, dauntless, and then tackle

Glengoyne · Post by **Glengoyne** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:36 pm

As an update. The Plus AGI thrower was a real treat in our next game, versus a similarly skilled Chaos team. He scooped up a loose ball, made a dodge to the open field, and completed a pass that lead to a length of the field scoring play. He also dodged around the field and assisted on numerous blocks.

The blitzer suffered a gouged eye...miss next game result when he got gang blocked on the Chaos first or second turn.

Given the number of helpful assists the thrower was able to provide, I do have to consider guard for the +AGI blitzer. Once his eye gets better, that is.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:42 am

Block on the +AG Thrower. He is just more than a thrower.

With Block and then some other skills he will be more usefull.