Alternative Humans

[SillySod]

I like the feel of diving catch for free. Unfortunately it does make the player quite overdescribed in terms of skills and only helps them on offence. I think this would be a fair boost.

Stats as they are, 60K catchers and 80k blitzers. Job done.

Problem with that is that it still wont make most people field more than two catchers.

[mattgslater]

60k Catchers, 80k Blitzers, 60k TRRs, got my vote. And yeah, I'd have 3: one dedicated safety, one dedicated WR, and one reserve. I'd totally be cool with keeping a 60k player on the bench, especially on a roster like that, where I'd try to carry 14 (stock benchwarmers would be QB or Kicker, dedicated Catcher, either backup Catcher or reserve lino).

4x Blitzer 320k
2x Catcher 120k
1x Ogre 140k
1x Thrower 70k
Subtotal: 8 players, 650k
3x Lino: 150k
3x TRR: 180k
20k bank (or 2 Throwers, 2 Linos, no bank, but that means positional on LOS)
Purchases: Apoth, Thrower, Lino, Catcher, TRR.

Solid, yet with development to look forward to.

[SillySod]

one dedicated safety, one dedicated WR, and one reserve.

WR?

That looks like one dedicated to defence and one dedicated to offence... in which case the reserve is somewhat redundant because you might as well switch in the other catcher that would have been on the bench this drive.

I guess I can see three on a team if you have one or more with +AG or possibly +St.

[Patchwork]

one dedicated safety, one dedicated WR, and one reserve.

WR?

I'm guessing wide receiver but it's a completey random guess

[mattgslater]

Wide Receiver. Sorry. Yeah, one offense and one defense. Sometimes you want to field 2 Catchers, as they're great against Speed teams, and having an extra Catcher is nice because a) AV7 wants a backup, b) ST2/Blodge is more rugged than a lino with Block over a short drive (not to mention easier to develop) and c) Catchers skill fast, meaning you're more likely to develop studs to game-plan around than if you spend the same energy building linos. I've thought about running two Catchers in my base defense: a Wracklauntless Catcher as a hitting safety and a DT/SS guy as a roaming zone.

If you make them not-overpriced, the only real knocks on Human Catchers are that a) they don't blitz well, b) they're fragile at high levels, and c) they're very dependent on the ability of the coach to win the matchup game. B is a good thing, in the big picture, A isn't fixable on ST2 and can be planned around with skills like Wrestle and Dauntless, and if you can't handle C, take it up with the mirror. If you're going to make Blitzers not-overpriced also, you need to bump up the TRR cost to be commensurate with Orcs, Norse and Skaven. But that's still a 20k-30k savings on a rookie team, or on a veteran team that builds up from rookie status.

[Jural]

I have played humans, and I don't have a problem starting with a good team or accumulating cash. Giving me more money just means more cheerleaders, coaches, and fan factor... or a 40k inducement buffer.

With all due respect, blah. It's not an on pitch change, and I think humans already excel at everything OFF the pitch! Only halflings and dwarves can work the inducement, Kick-Off Table, and FAME system more favorably.

I understand what you are saying, and I'd even be willing to playtest it to see if I am wrong. But I do think something more fundamental is needed.

[mattgslater]

A 40k inducement buffer isn't an on-pitch change? It's a tweak, not an overhaul, I'll give you that. This team doesn't need an overhaul.

I still like 80k Nerves Catchers, leaving everything else as-is. But 60k Catchers would go a long way in my book, and if you took 10k from Blitzers and put it on TRR it would be a good supplement. If even that isn't enough, take 10k off the Ogre. Translate over to the Ogre team, and you've killed two birds with one ball.

[bjorn9486]

Nerves of Steel Catcher would be interesting to test

[plasmoid]

I think it depends on the buff you're looking for.
As a coach, I'd rather have 4xdiving catch.
So I figure DC is the bigger buff, NOS the smaller one (though in a looong term league, that might get turned on it's head)

Cheers
Martin

[Frozen Yakman]

I admit to not being the most experienced BB coach but how about approaching the problem from a different angle by changing the bash aspect of the players that already do the bashing leaving the catchers to be the ball handlers they already are.

Couple Options Spring to Mind
1) Give Linemen S access on Normal for no price increase. This wouldn't help tournaments but should help their longevity as team by allowing them to develop a sturdy front line.
2) Give the Blitzer a new helmet with Horns on it. This change is pretty big and should be accompanied by an appropriate cost increase but I predict it would change the dynamic of the team in the desired fashion without changing the roles of the players.

[Patchwork]

I think it depends on the buff you're looking for.
As a coach, I'd rather have 4xdiving catch.
So I figure DC is the bigger buff, NOS the smaller one (though in a looong term league, that might get turned on it's head)

Cheers
Martin

I prefer NOS. I really love having that as a base skill on a catcher , espically considering it would be a double otherwise. I think diving catch would suit the human catchers better though, it fits better with the skilled specialists feel their throwers and catchers already have.

[mattgslater]

I think NOS would be more fun. The player can take Diving Catch on a normal roll, and with NOS, Catch and Dodge he just might. Plus, Nerves encourages risky play, tossing into/out of TZs, burning doubles rolls on Dump-off....

[Thadrin]

NoS has already been done with the Pro Elf team. Whether you see that as precedent or a reason to go for something else I leave to you.

I actually like it as a precedent for catchers having NoS to start with...would be a better buff too.

[Jural]

A 40k inducement buffer isn't a significant on-pitch change?

I would say yes to the above. And only because it's the human team. For the same reason that 40k vs. 50k re-rolls are not a major issue for dwarves (IMHO)- the team is already winning the "off pitch" battles regarding inducements, etc. For any elf squad, for example, the 40k would be major.

40k advantage on pitch is certainly interesting (hence I'm willing to consider it), but I think the problem is more fundamental, similar to when the Necromantic team was losing out completely without regen on the werewolves... no amount of 10k tweaking can change the team at a fundamental level.

DC, +1 AG, +1 AV, +1 STR, and NoS on the catchers certainly does change the squad at a fundamental level... but some are a bit too effective, as far as I'm concerned.

If you forced me to choose a roster right now, I'd probably go with +1 AV or Diving Catch, or Nerves of Steel. I'm pretty ambivalent amongst those choices.

[Carnis]

I read the whole lot, 10 pages of disagreement. Amazing . Every1 has an opinion, nobody agrees with anybody though.

First off, one of the big things I have to agree with was joemanji's 10k AV8->AV9 is undercosted in "the formula". That's why I'd pick an orc blitzer, over a human blitzer every time. Every time.

Second off, ST3 human catchers at MA7/AV7 are ghouls. They're nothing less, nothing more. Ghouls are not that spectacular players, its the undead team in the whole which is spectacular:

Zombies = Cheap cost 40k (used to be 30k) and have regenerate = long bench of fodder, yet almost free. And only 120k to put on the LOS to die (as opposed to elven 210k+).
Mummies = Big guys without nega-traits.
Wights = Human/Orc-blitzers, with regeneration.
Ghouls = MA7 & AG3 & Dodge in a already cheap roster.

A change of MA7/ST3 human catchers would put the humans on the level of the elven teams in terms of speed (slower than pros, slower than woodies, slower than high elves, as fast as dark elves). Whilst being less agile, meaning efficient speed is actually slower than DE's too (a DE blitzer with dodge, can often run thru unguarded TZs with a rerollable 2+, a human blitzer/catcher with AG3 just wont do it). PLUS, a DE witch will have jump up, meaning her speed is almost always the full 7.

So my strong opinion is, 8x MA7 would not be a problem, nor would it make the team faster. It would make oneturning nearly impossible, though.

What was written here recently, caught my attention as a description of "ManU/Arsenal" type of human team:

1) Give Linemen S access on Normal for no price increase. This wouldn't help tournaments but should help their longevity as team by allowing them to develop a sturdy front line.
2) Give the Blitzer a new helmet with Horns on it. This change is pretty big and should be accompanied by an appropriate cost increase but I predict it would change the dynamic of the team in the desired fashion without changing the roles of the players.

I don't agree with #2 btw. Anyway the essential message is: give them developmental potential, whilst keeping them human.
Give the human linemen GSP access (Chaos allstars marauders, without mutations).
Keep the other positions as they are, possibly dump blitzer price by 10k. My vote would go to the 8 2 3 8 catchers, with possibly a free diving catch to make the passing play a bit more viable option. This way the team would retain it's speed and feel.

Giving them +ST would change the team, but not dramatically. They would still be outshined by pro-elven and high-elven catchers, who start with better stats having same skill-access and 1 more movement. Not even gonna start on how a witch outshines this would-be-saviour.

Anyway, the top teams are top teams in leagues, because they have developmental potential. Unlike humans, who only have 4 players with a future (the blitzers, who, btw are worse then skaven blitzers.. ).

This would actually even help the humans in tournament formats, although not as much as is needed for a top6 position..