Skaven thrower with Leader and Dirty Player

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:32 am

A skaven team doesn't really need the thrower due to having access to the amazing gutter runners. The chance of failing simple things 1 out of 9 is just poor risk management and the team doesn't usually need Sure Hands to counter Strip Ball due to being able to hang back with the ball if needed. My own idea for the skaven thrower has been that he's an ok back up piece for times when Gutter Runners aren't readily available (second halfs of some matches come to mind). But I don't know if that happens often enough to warrant the 20k price increase in comparison to a linerat.

On the other hand, the skaven thrower can get Leader as a normal skill, which helps with maintaining lower TV as skaven rerolls cost 60k. Low TV is good as skaven can get good mileage out of inducements (good stars, Bloodweiser Babes and wizard).

But here's my idea: how about giving DP to a thrower as a second skill? He becomes expendable (especially at the second half) after the Leader reroll has been used, so fouling with him would make sense as much as fouling with a linerat. Plus he won't be a good candidate for the los if there's linerats available.

Another option would be giving him Kick for the same reason. In this case Kick could be the first skill he gets.

I'm focusing on second skills due to the fact that you can get completion SPP's on skaven throwers with relative ease which helps a lot in skilling up early.

How's this sound? I just actually gave my skaven thrower Accurate as a first skill last week for the express purpose of making him more reliable as a back up piece so criticism would be very welcome too.

Wylder · Post by **Wylder** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:38 am

Personally, I like my skaven throwers to take accurate, kick & kickoffreturn.

Ironjaw · Post by **Ironjaw** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:14 am

Obvious problem when using the Thrower as a back up piece, if you skill him up to have a second skill, that's a 110K back up, adding 11 tv.

If you're gonna have a thrower, then having block is all you need. I would only have a thrower in a league with lots of other skaven, slan and elves- then get him block and you can prevent the leap/strip ballers. If you use a gutter runner as a ball carrier against stripping wardancers, its going to be very hard to stop them popping the ball.

If you're against mainly bashy teams, don't bother with the TV drain.

I don't play with a rat ogre in leagues either due to TV management- I go 13 players and an apo, and I usually have stars to come in (in LRB 6.0 Fezglitch at 80k is a great player, along with a bribe he becomes a nightmare)

I'd look for a 13 man roster with 4 re rolls & Apo. That TV before skills will be about 114, so you can manage TV really well and get the inducements you need.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:28 am

At least I don't see ANY synergy between leader + DP.

You won't be able to use the DP on the first half and you'll be forced to pitch him in on every drive due to leader. Kick/DP I can understand barely.. But Sh/pass/DP/Leader just seems bloat to me. He could easily be knocked out the 2nd half, and then you wont get to use either skill..

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:41 am

I'll elaborate a bit. I meant Kick + Leader, not Kick + DP.

I think Kick Off Return is a good skill on the thrower and one that I hadn't thought of. With Accurate he can be reliably used to pick up balls landing in the back field and give them forward. But with this set up he's just useful on offence and he doesn't really bring much to the table there that a GR couldn't do. The typical skaven offence relies on getting a rat in scoring range and then getting him the ball perhaps followed by a dodge or two. Getting the ball to the scorer is usually not the issue due to the speed of the rats so I think the main issues are getting someone within scoring range and not blowing the catch roll. That said, I don't think that skaven offence is 100% reliable or really easy, but rather that the problems are usually found in the opponent's half of the field and that a thrower won't help there.

Sure Hands of course let's him try to pick up balls in TZ's on defence, but I'd still like a GR for that role since GR's can dodge out as well.

Funksultan · Post by **Funksultan** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:02 pm

Thrower on skaven? Absolutely. Have him pick up or throw? Nah.

The thrower is 20k more than a linerat. When he skills up the first time, he should always take leader. He's now 40k more than a linerat, but he's bringing and additional 60k of value to the team in the reroll! You're coming out ahead on the deal, and having an extra couple skills just in case the enemy has been picking on your poor gutter runners (as he should be).

"But I could save another 10k just by getting doubles on a linerat"
First, you don't wanna wait for doubles to happen, it's just too unreliable, and second, your linerats should be taking guard on doubles, or possibly, some complimentary mutation.

Dirty player on the Thrower? Heresy. As others have mentioned, why in the world would you want DP on any model that's more valuable than another? DP should be on a base linerat, or possibly, on models that are marked for death/firing.

Kick, is an amazing 2nd choice for a thrower. He's gotta be on the field anyway, you may as well consolidate those skills onto a player that'll use em.

Gutter Runners can pretty much do everything else you need them to. Pick one of these guys up for leader access, and possibly a backup play if things go bad.

I just can't see a Skaven team without one. It just makes too much sense.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:52 pm

I also don't see the synergy of Leader/DP. If he gets sent off in the first half, you have no Leader for the second.

An experienced Skaven player in our league swears by Leader/Kick (or Kick/Leader - I forget) on one of the Throwers (to be used on defense only). I think this is quite a good idea as you need practically every Linerat to be available for LOS duty.

For my part I like Skaven Throwers. They come into their own when you have no Re-rolls left in a scramble (AG3 + Sure Hands is better odds to pick up than AG4 alone). And they only need a double (or +AG) to become extremely reliable. Plus even Skaven need to hold the ball sometimes.

I would suggest one defensive Thrower and one offensive Thrower is a valid way to go. The only problem, as ever with Skaven, is running out of Linerats to put on the LOS.

Hope this helps.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:56 pm

Smeborg wrote:An experienced Skaven player in our league swears by Leader/Kick (or Kick/Leader - I forget) on one of the Throwers

This.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:29 pm

It's alot easier to get Block on a thrower than a linerat. Reroll to pass and pick up makes dirty player useless compared to a linerat with only dirty player as skill.

Use thrower as a lineart but have him around the opponents ballcarriers if you can get it loose.

Linerat w. Sure Hands/Block 90K
Thrower w. Sure Hands/Pass/Block 90K

Same price if you use a linerat to be a "secondary" ballcarrier.

Grogmir · Post by **Grogmir** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:14 am

I'm no skaven coach (Only team I've ever lost to the AI on the PC game with! LOL) but Kick on a thrower sounds like a good idea.

With Skaven you can to readily focus just on the GRs, meaning while Linerats are one of the easiest to manifactor TD/SPPs with, they often get left behind.

Couple with the AV7 then all linerats need survival Skills ASAP, you'll also need em on the LOS at somepoint too (As other have said)

Therefore the Kick idea on a thrower sounds good. DP and Leader though does not.