Human Guide

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:37 pm

Joemanji wrote:I don't believe in skilling players for the LoS. The LoS is where players go to die ...

I think it's very hard to make a conclusive argument one way or the other on this, except on a few teams (not including humans) that can actually defend their LOS from all comers, like Orcs.

That's the thing about Humans in particular: there's no one right way. I love a Human passing game: I throw to Catchers with anybody (except the Ogre) and I'll throw to anybody (even the Ogre) with the Thrower. If there's any team that needs to develop quickly to survive... it's some variant of Chaos. Ok, but after that, it's ... Vampires. Fine. But Humans are high up on the list of teams that rise or fall on their early development.

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:41 pm

This is a brilliant article. You've captured the overall flavour of Human play so well. The introduction is great - jack of all trades/master of none = spot on.

Someone get this man on the BBRC!

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:01 am

I would also add a few points:

It’s true that humans struggle against the ‘extreme’ teams. However I’d say they struggle much more against the extremely bashy teams than against the extremely fast teams.

The hardest matches for humans are against teams like Orcs and Lizardmen – multiple high strength players force the AG3 dodging game, which will eventually come a cropper.

Khemri are so slow and predictable that you can make your speed advantage really count. Dwarves are a little easier to handle too, being only St3 across the board and only a shade quicker than Khemri.

Humans’ superior muscle against elves and skaven is significant; you’re as well equipped as most non-tackle teams to get stuck in and cause problems. Also, where most bashier teams are easily outmanoeuvred by the agile/fragile axis, humans are fast enough to take away this advantage.

On costing, I’m not sure blitzers are as horribly overpriced as you suggest. The one position which stands out as being a bit pricey is the ogre who is bizarrely the same cost as a kroxigor – trading AG+1 (a virtual irrelevance) for MA-1 and no prehensile tail.

This thread is not about making changes but I suppose if you made a few cost tweaks (e.g. 130k ogre, 40k RR?) then Humans would fair better in lower TV situations. However, as long as they’re essentially an AG3/ST3 team with only a little bit of block and dodge, then they’ll never quite cut it at the top end of tier 1.

Not that I’m arguing for change though. I wouldn’t want them to lose their flavour as I enjoy using Humans more than most teams, precisely because of the different play styles, the flexibility and the challenge!

Ironjaw · Post by **Ironjaw** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:30 am

Pippy wrote:spot on

Pippy wrote:I would also add a few points

Idiot

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:21 pm

Pippy wrote:On costing, I’m not sure blitzers are as horribly overpriced as you suggest. The one position which stands out as being a bit pricey is the ogre who is bizarrely the same cost as a kroxigor – trading AG+1 (a virtual irrelevance) for MA-1 and no prehensile tail.

That suggests to me that the Kroxigor is undercosted IMO. I think the Ogre is the best big guy around. His AG has won me a few games.

As for the Blitzer ... I always compare him to the Orc Blitzer. Both teams in the box set, both teams designed at the same time. Both Blitzers have +1MA, Block and S access on their relative lineman, yet one costs +30K and one +40K. And ... its the wrong one. In a league the Human's AV8 will lead to him taking more injuries and so needing to be replaced more often. So his 90K is a very real handicap. Not to mention his role as the only player with access to Guard (apart from the Ogre) means he will more likely in a position to be hit, and the Human play style means he'll be making more dodges. I've played Orcs and Humans a lot. Never took a single casualty with Orcs leading to death or retirement. With Humans though, I'm replacing Blitzers on a semi-regular basis.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:27 pm

Joemanji wrote:I've played Orcs and Humans a lot. Never took a single casualty with Orcs leading to death or retirement.

I agree with Joe, but this can't be true.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:48 pm

Sorry, I really meant with one particular team in the MBBL Orcham Athletic - TV250, 38 games. Checking my history, seems I had a Troll die two games in a row early on, so it seems I was indulging in hyperbole.

Sure I got a bit lucky not to have anything else serious happen, but that is the kind of luck you can't possibly have with Humans. Can't really remember what happened with the other teams, but they weren't in LRB5/6.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:25 pm

I've had players die in that time, but my first 11 seasons with Orcs and all the pickup games in between I never had a game with a surviving Orc player missing to injury. It was just in the last couple years that I first had a BOB miss a game (and now it's happened twice).

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:52 pm

So Joe,
all you gotta do now is polish the thing and then put it in a word or pdf document

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:48 pm

I will get there soon.

Wyverex · Post by **Wyverex** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:41 pm

Nice guide!

Though I'd opt for having two of your blitzers develop as a defensive strip baller all the time. I've had great results in giving two blitzers Strip Ball as their first skill while developing the other two in an offensive style. Being able to cover both sides of the pitch with a strip baller has always proved to be invaluable to me because the opponent is forced to act more cautiously and there are plenty of situations to actually put that skill to use.

The defense always wins the game

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:48 pm

Wyverex wrote:Though I'd opt for having two of your blitzers develop as a defensive strip baller all the time. I've had great results in giving two blitzers Strip Ball as their first skill while developing the other two in an offensive style. Being able to cover both sides of the pitch with a strip baller has always proved to be invaluable to me because the opponent is forced to act more cautiously and there are plenty of situations to actually put that skill to use.

I have to say that I really don't see the use for Strip Ball on AG3 players. If you do get to actually use it, then you'd probably be better off with Tackle or Guard in the first place.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:08 pm

I agree. It's use is limited to little more than a passive threat - it stops your opponent running his ball carrier out into the open and relying on blodge for example. I have taken one Strip Ball blitzer and got value from him in this way. But over the course of a whole game Guard, Tackle or MB would be better.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:59 pm

Strip Ball ≠ worst skill in the game. Rather, Strip Ball = most overrated skill in the game. Too easy to game around, leaves the ball in a TZ even when it works. Once in awhile it comes up big, so it appeals to the inner gambler, but the intermittent reward doesn't justify the lack of a useful skill under other circumstances.

Other than the idea that Human Blitzers are inferior to Orc Blitzers (to me, they're both costed right, though I'll admit that the Orc is a slightly better value*), I'm mostly in agreement with Joemanji's posts earlier on this page.

* Orcs have 0-7 overpriced positionals and 0-4 more at a good deal, plus a choice of mediocre linemen or lame cheapo positional-wannabes. Humans have 0-4 overpriced positionals, 0-5 good-but-overpriced positionals, 0-2 good deal positionals, quality linemen and undercosted re-rolls.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:31 pm

mattgslater wrote:Rather, Strip Ball = most overrated skill in the game. Too easy to game around, leaves the ball in a TZ even when it works.

Could leave the ball in no TZs if it bounces off a player. Or in your TZs too. Anyway, ball on the ground in 1 (or even 2/3) TZs is gold for AG4 teams, especially since they'll build for Sure Hands. Humans are not this kind of team though.

Anyway, having Strip Ball doesn't mean you'll only roll push. It just means you are happy if you do ... a POW can still happen, leaving one less TZ on the ball.