Dark elf development

[DiddleySquat]

Hey i might ask for my own help here. I've got a new (2 games) Dark Elf Team and am trying to plan my progression.

I currently have 4 Blitzers 2xDodge 1xGuard 1x-1MV a Runner NoS and 6 Linemen 1xKick

I'm playing a 101 Zig on defence and once I get the cash I'm planning on getting 2 WE and another Runner.

I think my ideal set up will be 3xLineelves on the line then WE, B, B, WE and then on the back row B, R, L, B

I'm trying to think of a way of developing those back row blitzers into safeties that will survive the first turn. They will get Dodge and SS as their first skills but then what? Tackle seems like a good choice to stop catchers sneaking past, but I'd love to make more use of Shadowing and Diving Tackle.

I think I'll try to make the centre back row players Runner and lineman with kick into pass blockers but is that a waste of a skill?

Building your Blitzers depends on how many doubles you roll. For me, I'd always go for Dodge first, then Side Step and always Guard if you roll a double. Don't be distracted by a 2nd double (for Mighty Blow) until you have the previous three skills.
If by lvl 4 you haven't rolled a double, you can diversify your Side-Stepping Blodger. Possible choices are Diving Tackle, Strip Ball, Tackle, Jump Up, ...

Then use those Blitzers to protect your Witch Elves and/or Runner in your defensive setup. Even though they probably have Dodge and/or Block/Wrestle, you don't want them to take the first hit in a blitz (probably by a piece with Tackle, Mighty Blow, ...).
So 3 Linemen on the LoS, then 2nd line B, B, B, B and somewhere 3rd line your WE's, R's or L kicker.

Your idea to build safeties is fine, but Witch Elves are better suited for it, IMHO. Give then Block or Wrestle first, Side Step, Tackle/Diving Tackle.

[Carnis]

Building your Blitzers depends on how many doubles you roll. For me, I'd always go for Dodge first, then Side Step and always Guard if you roll a double. Don't be distracted by a 2nd double (for Mighty Blow) until you have the previous three skills.

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Have to say I disagree. You don't ever want to skip a blodging Guard/MB DE-blitzer ;P

[mattgslater]

I'm with Diddley. Power Four first. You don't have breakaway speed, so you need mad cover skills.

[DiddleySquat]

Well maybe after Guard and Dodge, as a 3rd skill Mighty Blow would be a somewhat decent pick. But as a 2nd pick after Guard, your Blitzer just going to be a huge 'hit me' target. Dodge is needed for staying on your feet and the excellent repositioning options it gives. Guard is a very useful skill, but it's a lot more useful if it's present at the right spot.

[mattgslater]

See, I'm a huge fan of the synergy of Blodge/Guard/Side Step. That combo is evil. And you can never have enough of any of those skills (well, okay, a couple linemen with Wrestle over Block...).

[ombwiri]

I think Diddley is right about WE making better safeties. Combining Jump Up with Diving Tackle is golden.

So WE development, Wrestle, SS, DT, Shadowing?
Blitzers can then take the middle line with Dodge, SS, two with ball winning skills and the others with more defensive skills.
I really like the idea of the Runner and Kicker having Pass Block. They can have full coverage of the pitch and while it's by no means a certainty that they can pull off a int the doubt it will put doubt in the mind of the offensive player.

On the MB side of things I can't ever see myself giving a bash skill to a player on this team. I just don't block enough for it to be worthwhile. Yes extra players is a match winner but I'd rather have ball winning skills.

I started playing the Dark Elves after proving to be pretty handy (within the small sample of my playing group) with Orcs and Wood & Pro Elves. I've shown I can work the bash and the Thrower/Catcher game so I thought D Elves would be a bit of a challenge. I really like the idea of developing a strong defensive team but one designed for agility players rather than the traditional Bash, 2-1 grind.

I'm not sure if it isn't going to take too much development but it looks like it may be fun.

Sort of like playing Blue in Magic (based off 13 year old recollections of playing magic)

[Rhyoth]

I think i agree with Carnis about Mighty Blow : when DE are facing a faster team, it is really useful to be able to deal some damages to your opponent. (i am not worried about those guy being target : the roster is already full of target : Witches, Runners, Assassin, your kicker...)

Developping the same idea, i try to take Tackle early (as skill #1 or #2) for at least 1 blitzer, preferably 2 (and i may be tempted to take MB over Guard on a double, if i already have 2+ Guarders)

Regarding linemen, i found out that Wrestle becomes really handy when facing developped teams (or Dwarves/Norse), so i try to give it to most of my linemen since :
1) most of my positionnals have or will have Block,
2) linemen need to be replaced more often than any other guy

Of course, a couple of linemen with Block is never a waste...

[DiddleySquat]

I'm in full agreement with Matt: Blodge/SS/Guard is nerve wrecking for the opponent. Do that times 4 if you are lucky with double rolls.

In a DaE team, Mighty Blow only has a function on a hunter-killer Witch Elf. It's a decent skill, but Witches have a lot of useful skills, so it's no way needed. I prefer to build one as a ball hunter with Wrestle, Tackle, Side Step/Leap (or Strip Ball if you want) and the other as a Safety (Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Tackle, Shadowing). Receivers hate them: be doomed if you dodge, be doomed if you don't.

About Block versus Wrestle: you want Block on your ball carriers, so eventually your Runner(s) and obviously your Blitzers. Wrestle is the counter to Block, so you want some, especially if you're playing more developed teams, stacked to the bleechers with Block.
With 4 Blitzers, 1 or 2 Block Witches and 1 or 2 Block Runners, you have enough Block and can give your Linemen Wrestle.
The problem with Wrestle is the lack of synergy with Guard. Then Block is the clear winner. So if your first skill up on a Lineman is a double, then Guard followed by Block. If no double on the first roll, he gets Wrestle. The odds are 5/36 he rolls a double on the 2nd skill (no, I don't count 6+6 as a double ), well ... Guard it still is then, just slightly less useful without Block.

As for "I don't give Guard if I already have 2+ Guard players...", I prefer the saying "If you have too much Guard, it means you're winning."

[cyagen]

I agree, Guard is the kind of skill that is more useful the more you spam it.

I an Elf team, you can't get enough people with Guard, for the Linemen, any other double skill is suboptimal.

[mattgslater]

I agree, Guard is the kind of skill that is more useful the more you spam it.

In context I agree completely. Bash teams have serious competitors, at least on some players. Like on Undead, it's great on Zs and Mummies, but only good on everybody else. And Orcs really can have too much Guard, because they have such an innate ST/AV advantage that getting 2d or 3d blocks is just a matter of course, even with only a few Guard players. Not that it isn't good when taken to excess, but unlike Dark Elves and their ilk, Orcs and (especially) Chaos can hit a point of diminishing Guard returns. My first 1d block with Orcs was in my sixth season playing the team, and I used to force opposing 1d blocks 3-8 times a game, with between zero and five Guard players.

But on Dark Elves, like for, oh, this thread? You're totally right. Guard is the one best doubles skill, and any other selection is a vanity pick, except perhaps on Witch Elves. Even if it's a useful skill, like Mighty Blow or Grab (or on High/Wood Elf Catchers, Nerves of Steel), it's still a vanity pick by comparison, though somewhat more forgivable because you'll get value out of it as opposed to the normal pick plus 10k inducements.

[Carnis]

My first 1d block with Orcs was in my sixth season playing the team, and I used to force opposing 1d blocks 3-8 times a game, with between zero and five Guard players.

You play really poor opposition then, or you are nuffle's illegitimate son. The other option is, you don't take all the 1die blocks that you would otherwise get. I reckon a fair amount of chaos, orc and nurgleteams can outguard & then outbash your 0-5 guard orcs. I invite you to join fumbbl, and keep up with your claims online. Fumbbl is moving to LRB6 soonish anyway (public beta with plenty of bugs is already running), so you should have no issues with the ruleset.

I disagree, that orcs could have too much guard. I quote Ianwilliams advice of picking all guard (even 8 ) + maybe 1 tackle or frenzy as a standard tournament line for orcs..

The point was though, that if you already have guard on the same player, then would you skip the 2nd double or a stat, and you should not.. Even if it postpones getting SS.

[mattgslater]

@Carnis: The proper answer is "none of the above." Orcs are just really good for engineering 2d blocks.

When you have a lot of variance in your profile ST relative to the ST of the opponent you're blocking, it's much easier to engineer 2d blocks. When it's Orcs on Orcs, Guard is still really good no matter how much you take, though it's not quite what it is if it's Dwarfs on Dwarfs, where they're all the same ST. But when it's Orcs on Humans or Dwarfs or any elf team, then you can pretty much always get 2d or 3d on pretty much everything; the BOBs open up the assists for the Blitzers, and only occasionally do you have to position a guy for an assist. If you are blocking 1d, you're hitting a big guy or something, and you're doing it with Block and a TRR 90% of the time. Guard is still nice, but you don't need much. Being radically out-Guarded more-or-less neutralizes your Strength advantage, but presumably you spent those improvements on something else; if that something else was a spammed spam skill, like MB or Stand Firm, then getting radically out-Guarded just means having to think for a second or two before ripping 'em apart.

By contrast, Dark Elves are all ST3. In order to get 2d consistently, you either need Guard, weak opposition, burned actions or really selective blocking.

[DiddleySquat]

The point was though, that if you already have guard on the same player, then would you skip the 2nd double or a stat, and you should not.. Even if it postpones getting SS.

Ok, let's focus on this for a second. Assume you start with a double, so you pick Guard.
If double on the 2nd, I'd certainly pick Dodge over Mighty Blow. Dodge simply is a better skill - to protect and to move - and counts for 10TV less than MB.
As a 3rd Skill, if I double, I might take Mighty Blow on my Dodge Guard, but it depends on the rest of my team. Ignoring the double and picking Side Step is the alternative.

As for stat increases, I'd always take a all +ST, but probably +AG on only one Blitzer (although I'd love it much more on a Runner). +AV never. +MA is a tricky one, I guess it'll depend again on the rest of the team's skills.

[Carnis]

As for stat increases, I'd always take a all +ST, but probably +AG on only one Blitzer (although I'd love it much more on a Runner). +AV never. +MA is a tricky one, I guess it'll depend again on the rest of the team's skills.

I'd probably skip MA as well, the new 6-skill cap makes it less alluring. Having one player above average is great, but AG5.. You can't skip AG5. It's insanely powerful with skills that give ag-rerolls, like surehands, dodge, pass, safe throw..

[mattgslater]

On a 6+4 with Dark Elves, I could see myself taking +MA on a Runner at 16 or 31 SPP. I could definitely get it for a Blitzer for combo value with Dodge and Side Step, to build a speed-rusher Winger who doubles as a scoring (even 1TTD) threat. At 51 or more SPP, +AV becomes tempting, particularly for a lineman. +MA becomes credible on a Witch Elf if I already have an MA8 piece and the Witch already has Block or Wrestle and Side Step.

On a 6+5, it's +AG for any positional. If I get a Lineman with 6+5, I take AG the first time. I haven't ever had more than one, so I'm not sure what I'd do if I rolled a second +AG lino. The debate is between moving a Blitzer to full-time line duty and bypassing a cool improvement. I'd probably end up going bread-and-butter instead. Can't have too many power skills, and with the head start this team gets, there's no reason not to try to get two or three on everybody (even the specialists*, but the backup can take just one), and a few with all four.

* If you're going with three specialists (tempting if you like Assassins and stay healthy, as you'll get no Mercs running 14 Dark Elves), then one of them can be a Runner who goes for toolbox skills first.