Which first double skill on a Troll Slayer?

[mattgslater]

On a Block/Frenzy piece that you wouldn't attempt a dodge with, Side Step is the equivalent of Dodge and Stand Firm, with no (net) ability to negate.* Stand Firm can still be crowd-surfed with Frenzernaut, and Stand Firm itself doesn't come with a reason not to block; it just increases the odds of losing the action. Also, when knocked down, Stand Firm doesn't give you the opportunity to fall into the optimum square, unless you were there to begin with.

* Yes, Grab negates Side Step, but only at the cost of its standard function. And it can't be used to surf a player who isn't on the sideline square.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

For some reason people are obsessed with doubles rolls. With the CRP the need for doubles is even lower than it was before, with it adding more tv than a normal skill. I would take M.B, Piling on, Guard, then consider taking some of the different skills. 3 skills is quite a lot of spps really and these are just more efficient for what you want him to do, even if you are "wasting" a doubles roll.

[Asperon Thorn]

On a Block/Frenzy piece that you wouldn't attempt a dodge with, Side Step is the equivalent of Dodge and Stand Firm, with no (net) ability to negate.* Stand Firm can still be crowd-surfed with Frenzernaut, and Stand Firm itself doesn't come with a reason not to block; it just increases the odds of losing the action. Also, when knocked down, Stand Firm doesn't give you the opportunity to fall into the optimum square, unless you were there to begin with.

* Yes, Grab negates Side Step, but only at the cost of its standard function. And it can't be used to surf a player who isn't on the sideline square.

I was thinking more than just crowd surfing and how I use my witches (not a big dwarf player) Witches are used for three things:

1) Crowd Surfing - in Which Sidestep is critical, but Standfirm can easily substitute for (although isn't as good, it is more readily available for a troll slayer.)

2) General Mayhem - Jump up and Frenzy as a combo mean that even a knocked down Witch can pop up in the middle of a formation and cause havoc. But They can also frenzy cages in wierd direction and basically scatter cages. This is something that Troll Slayers also do, just a bit differently.

3) Eating blitzes - You can often stick a Witch Elf near the ball carrier in which you give your opponent the choice between blitzing her off, or taking a dodge. Why is this successful? It is a combination of frenzy to get there, but also block and dodge to stay on her feet. Sidestep also helps, although it often takes the decision away, as the blitz isn't as useful. . .


So for point 3) I say dodge. Keep the Trollslayer on his feet. Use a regular roll for stand firm, but if you get a second double get sidestep instead.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

My argument is that SS = a superior version of Stand Firm (a quality skill in context anyway), with a large portion of Dodge thrown in (the deterrent part). With Dwarfs, your opponent just has a lack of juicy targets. Side Step takes another one away, with much less investment than Dodge+Stand Firm. So if you don't want to block the SS Slayer (blocking him just gets him more stuck in), and you don't want to block the AV9/TS speedbumps, who do you want to block? That's how Dwarfs get an advantage. Doing it in one skill (SS) as opposed to two (SF+Dodge) makes it that much easier to get Mighty Blow or something.

[Asperon Thorn]

While I understand the reasoning. I always prefer to keep players on their feet, rather than a better positioned prone body. Stand firm can be used almost as well, for the positioning. But there is no replacement for dodge.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

I still don't think you're seeing it. Side Step pushes are sometimes worse than "nothing" from the attacker's position, especially on a player with Block, Dauntless, Frenzy and (soon) Mighty Blow. Every time your opponent thinks about blocking him, he'll then think, "and if I push, I'll get chained to (break up my cage/get driven OOB/open a partition/generate extra blocks or assists)." That's almost worth the 45% reduction in knockdowns, which is the net upside on Dodge, if you factor the ubiquity of Tackle against the occasional call for a 4+ with free cover. Remember, that's just on knockdowns: until he gets Stand Firm, he can still be driven out of position or off his man.

This is assuming you're talking about the player at his next skill. Until then, Side Step is a no-brainer over Dodge. Then, when it's Dodge/SF vs. SS, the SS player will also be up a skill, for Mighty Blow.