Ape Roster

[Heff]

I just wish there was space for Very long legs (well arms) and leap on the gibbons but I recognise that is both pointless and redundant. ah well

[Pitch Invader]

I was intending them to be a tier 1 team, but not at the very top of the tier. It's hard to have good strength and not be a tier 1 team, and it is constrained by the minis that are available which include 2 types of gorillas, a thrower & both chimp linemen & runners. that is a lot of options, so it's going to be a good team.

I think they are a good deal less powerful than orcs though. yes, the gorillas have some skills- but not the best skills and they must pay for them. plus the ape roster has their blitzers pulling double duty as strength and blitzer pieces. For hitting power, an orc team has four strength 4 hitters and four strength 3 with Block, while the Apes have four strength 4 hitters.. juggernaut will help out one per turn if blitzing. The way I look at it then is the orcs have twice the number of reliable blocks to throw than the ape team, not looking at the big guy on both teams.

regarding a comment above on 4 frenzy gorillas, remember that the gorilla blockers start with grab, so are never allowed to have frenzy. That was a conscious decision, to limit such potential.

I might be able to see the orangutan losing sure hands, but it's a rough choice - the only team with an agility 3 thrower without sure hands is Norse. I'd worry that without sure hands the Orangutan would be a non-choice, and the team would become a runner-style team like dwarves. The orangutan is characterful and its a mini that's being made, so it would be a shame if he was nerfed to the point that he wasn't worth considering taking.

This team is already going to eat rerolls, which is one of the designed drawbacks, but would starting without sure hands make it too much? Other teams suffer with such: Lizardmen & Chaos Dwarves come to mind. What do you think? Without sure hands is the Orangutan still worth taking?

another possible nerf is drop all gorilla & silverback to armor 8. though that would reduce their cost, making it easier to get rerolls. would that make the team scaled down, or actually end up helping it to be better?

[Pitch Invader]

I just wish there was space for Very long legs (well arms) and leap on the gibbons but I recognise that is both pointless and redundant. ah well

i did think about leap for gibbons, but to start with it might make them better ball carriers than the chimp runners. It is characterful though.

I also thought about shadowing, just to show how they can be annoying to have around, but decided the diving tackle made more sense.

[Kort]

I was intending them to be a tier 1 team, but not at the very top of the tier. It's hard to have good strength and not be a tier 1 team, and it is constrained by the minis that are available which include 2 types of gorillas, a thrower & both chimp linemen & runners. that is a lot of options, so it's going to be a good team.

Sure but it is hard to design a team from the groud up that is tier one without playtesting. I think it is easier to start with a low tier 1 roster and improve it by increments if playtesting shows it is needed.

Another mistake is to design a team you would enjoy to play with, instead of designing a team you would like to play against.

I think the revised roster (minus the gimmicky stuties) is worth playtesting.

I might be able to see the orangutan losing sure hands, but it's a rough choice - the only team with an agility 3 thrower without sure hands is Norse. I'd worry that without sure hands the Orangutan would be a non-choice, and the team would become a runner-style team like dwarves. The orangutan is characterful and its a mini that's being made, so it would be a shame if he was nerfed to the point that he wasn't worth considering taking.

Sure Hands is fine in a team that is not very reliable otherwise. I also like the presence of skills such as Juggernaut and Fend that make the team more reliable as a side effect. Keep the Orangutan as is.

another possible nerf is drop all gorilla & silverback to armor 8. though that would reduce their cost, making it easier to get rerolls. would that make the team scaled down, or actually end up helping it to be better?

The big guy might need a nerf but some playtesting is required to determine if it is an issue.

[legowarrior]

Yeah, I'm not in favor of Gibbons, unless you decide to give them Right Stuff, and let the orangutan throw them. I already tried something like that, and it felt way too much like an orc team to me. This was my unsuccessful attempt based on Hindu mythology.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33112&p=588597&hilit=vanara#p588597

Kids, friends don't let friends recreate the orc team!

[Heff]

How about no strength access but (almost)universal guard? mainly cos gorillas, chimps and gibbons are social. orangs are not. give them GA to represent that they are agile. The Orangs get sure hands and strong arm but are GAP access. (no guard on orangs, I thought of loner for a second but that would be a bit much).

[Heff]

So a silly idea and everybody walked away looking embarrassed. Heff kills another thread.

[Pitch Invader]

So a silly idea and everybody walked away looking embarrassed. Heff kills another thread.

Got sidetracked didn't mean to ignore it.. well, it's certainly be an interesting team, but I think it'd prove to be far stronger than the proposed roster as it stands now. The more guard that a team has the greater returns it has- I've faced Dwarf teams with five or 6 guards and it's a nightmarish beast. a team with all guard, or even just the 4 gorillas with guard as a starting team would be too powerful i suspect, especially in a tournament or early league environment.

some poo-pooing of the gibbons it seems (see what I did there?) but I don't think it'd be right to leave them off the roster since they are minis that will be made- as will a dedicated 'King Kong' type big Gorilla, so they'll have to find a place on the roster. I do think it'd be best to avoid the throw team mate & right stuff combo: leave that to the 'flings & gobbos (&orcs).

although I could see a star player chimp similar to the bomber who flings poo. I doubt it'd have any real damage like the goblin bomber- maybe something like causing the player that is hit to lose his tackle zones until he passes a 'really stupid' test.

[Heff]

The roster needs gibbons cos they are apes and its an ape team.
My thinking was that we have ag3 block and dodge teams so another "universal" might be fun. Went with guard cos of the social aspect of apes but think wrestle may be fun. cannot hurt people but sure tie em up. Only problem would be there would be NO BLOCK on the team at all. Guard was probably a bit much (str6 on the line off the bat? nah).

How about dodge stunty catch on the gibbons, or again is that a bit much?

[Darkson]

Guard is a big no-no for rookie players.

[Heff]

On reflection your right.

For all the Gibbon haters out there how about catch stunty

"Ah you have gibbons. I hate those Catch Stunty Gibbons"

[Pitch Invader]

the problem with catch is since the team has minis for dedicated 'chimp runners' I imagine they are the intended ball carriers- i wouldn't want the gibbons to replace them or be better at it than them. So I think it'd be better for gibbons to have another intended role- not that they couldn't acquire catch and develop into ball carriers.

that is why I thought gibbons might make good 'harassers' and so thought of them with diving tackle.. using stunty to squeeze in where needed, and make it hard for the opponent to get away. But wrestle might be a good skill for them instead (?)

[Darkson]

If they have Stunty, then Wrestle would be a double, making them the only Stunty to start with one.

[PairODice]

An Ape roster is fine but the proposed roster is more team than Ape. Even Chimps would have Mighty Blow to start but would also be Wild Animals. The knuckle walking trait might mean that Chimps cannot Sprint or Go For It while carrying an object(e.g. the ball). Gorillas would have a trait like Shy Animal which would be like Wild Animal except that 2 would NOT be added to the roll for a Block or Blitz action. Lots more ideas on the theme but thought I would wait to see if an Ape roster is what is trying to be made.

[Heff]

An Ape roster is fine but the proposed roster is more team than Ape. Even Chimps would have Mighty Blow to start but would also be Wild Animals. The knuckle walking trait might mean that Chimps cannot Sprint or Go For It while carrying an object(e.g. the ball). Gorillas would have a trait like Shy Animal which would be like Wild Animal except that 2 would NOT be added to the roll for a Block or Blitz action. Lots more ideas on the theme but thought I would wait to see if an Ape roster is what is trying to be made.

But then you would have no team. All WA means 50% won't move. All fluff no team. Shy animal just destroys your gorillas. Would be fluffy as hell but more unplayable than ogres, which can be an exercise in futility