Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[daloonieshaman]

.... ya see the clown shooting out of the cannon now?

[DoubleSkulls]

The only house rules the site employs are the teams must only play other team within 15% TV of eachother. But that is there to make sure matches are fair and to limit cherry picking in R etc...

However it was never the expectation of the BBRC - or the community involved in developing LRB5 - that this would be a common situation. Both Cyanide and FUMBBL have it, and it distorts team development because it encourages teams to sit in a certain TV zone that their coach thinks is the sweet spot. It also encourages min/max TV optimisation to an extent that does not apply within TT leagues - or even online leagues that don't use TV as the only way of allocating games.

[RandomOracle]

What's the issue with the data from high-TV matches in Blackbox? The teams aren't minmaxing and TV differences are so big that you see inducements all the time. In my last five matches I've faced these inducements:

1 bloodweiser babe
wandering apothecary 1
Star player Ugroth Bolgrot
--
1 bribe
1 bloodweiser babe
1 Igor
--
Star player Setekh
--
1 bloodweiser babe
wandering apothecaries 2
--
1 bloodweiser babe

Granted, mercenaries and wizards aren't implemented yet, but is there something else that makes this data invalid?

[Carnis]

The only house rules the site employs are the teams must only play other team within 15% TV of eachother. But that is there to make sure matches are fair and to limit cherry picking in R etc...

However it was never the expectation of the BBRC - or the community involved in developing LRB5 - that this would be a common situation. Both Cyanide and FUMBBL have it, and it distorts team development because it encourages teams to sit in a certain TV zone that their coach thinks is the sweet spot. It also encourages min/max TV optimisation to an extent that does not apply within TT leagues - or even online leagues that don't use TV as the only way of allocating games.

It's a very known phenomena in fumbbl that people stay in a sweetspot for their teams, eg coaches playing amazons at TV 1400's, coaches playing dwarves at 1600's and playing CDs or the like at 1900's and finally chaos at 2200's. This no doubt is a phenomena that only happens online and distorts these teams to win more than they should due to being at their sweet spot constantly. However fumbbl also encourages teambuilding to prepare for year quarterly-majors, where the teams get matched against any team they happen to be drawn against with no TV limits at all.

Sweetspotting is an obvious distortion present in the online community and not in TT or closed/open league community.

HOWEVER, this has very little to do with the OPs topic, eg. spamming the killerstack mb po claw and that there's no real counter out there at higher tv. RO's team is racking an impressive 36-1-1 in his last 38 matches, this suggests to me that his team is either optimal and it's working as intended or that claw mb po is really overpowered in high TV matches. My team can't really give any stats about it atm, as 8/9 of my players died recently ;].

[DoubleSkulls]

Something has to be the best combination. If claw/mb/po gets weakened as a combo what's next... everyone complaining AV9 teams are too good?

[daloonieshaman]

Something has to be the best combination. If claw/mb/po gets weakened as a combo what's next... everyone complaining AV9 teams are too good?

no the age old argument that there is no chance whatsoever to beat halflings

[Mirascael]

Something has to be the best combination. If claw/mb/po gets weakened as a combo what's next... everyone complaining AV9 teams are too good?

Something has to be the best skill. Fouls with Dirty Player should cause RIPs automatically.

[garion]

Something has to be the best combination. If claw/mb/po gets weakened as a combo what's next... everyone complaining AV9 teams are too good?

Well I didnt want to write in these threads anymore, but the three members of the BBRC are completely missing the point. No one is saying MB is OP or Claw is Op.

Most people think claw on its own is a really good piece of game design. However it probably should not have been allowed to stack with MB. Galak has said numerous times that this skill was brought in more as an alternative to MB so a chaos player would take one or the other.

Personally i dont actually mind that stack at all. The problem is how OP PO is. Even on its own the option to RR injruy is just riduclous. Galak said in a previous post in this thread he hates the idea of it being Av only. I find that very strange because that is what it always was.

Now this IS NOT about min maxing either the games i have posted show that at a high TV there is no stopping it at all. These teams can easily be created in TT leagues which both Carnis and Plasmoids have pointed out has happened in their local leagues. This has also happened even though in Plasmoids case he is a believer in the use of Fend as a counter.
So it is not just online versions of the game that are experiencing this.

Now the forum admin keep pointing to that poll above and saying well 75% of the TT community disagree. Frankly that poll is nonsense. Look at the wording of the question and the wording of the answers it is (not intentionally im sure) slanted massivley in favour of people saying leave it alone. If the question was worded- 'Do you think the combination of MB PO CLAW is slightly over powered?' and the answers were 'Yes it could be toned down a bit' and 'no it is perfect'. then you would get very different resutls. Or if the question said - Do you agree that this combo MB PO Claw is overpowered?' and the options were 'Yes it is a bit' and 'no it isnt at all' then the results would be different again.

Now fend is the counter for it. Yes it may work to protect murder on the LoS in the first turn but after that the killer combo players will just hunt for every player without it tying those 3 or 4 players with fend up until everyone else has been cleared from the pitch. The only way to counter this is have fend en masse which is a terrible idea because while it may give you an edge in the match up against teams with the killer combo other teams like elves will be able to tear your team to pieces because of its lack of other useful skills like tackle diving tackle, stand firm, guard etc....

Also Fend can only be taken on half the teams without the increase to your teams TV being a big hinderance to your TV.
Teams that can make very good use of it are - Zons, Norse, Humans, Slann, Undead, Necro, Khemri, Orc and Dwarf
Teams that cannot afford to take it are - Elf, High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarf, Nurgle, Chaos, Chaos Pact, Ogre, Halfings, Goblin, Underworld

Also Vampires and Skaven will struggle to make use of it because their linemen all die so easily anyway and they will rarely last long enough to make it to a second skill and certainly not third.

Reasons - Elf teams - their players are too expensive and once you have got a full set of players (e.g. high elves - 2 blitzers 4 catchers and a thrower) then your TV has already increased a lot, now all the elf teams need some blodge SS diving tackle leap Wrestle strip ball and because of all the vital skills they need to win games they have no room or very little room for fend. I posted a high elf team of mine in this thread and no one has been able to find 4 players i could have give Fend to in that roster instead of developing the players how i have. Only 1 player has been highlighted as a candidate for fend.

Lizardmen cant afford to take it because they start with no skills and their best players are typically slow to develop and they need guard, Tackle, Break tackle, MB, Frenzy, Block spread around the team asap other wise they cannot compete against any of the other teams. If they make their team built solely to fight PO they will get beaten by all the other teams.

Chaos Dwarf, Chaos, nurgle etc... cant afford Fend because if they dont concentrate on getting the killer skills and get more defensive ones instead their team will be desimated when facing another killer team that has been built to kill.

Also all big guys have been made pretty useless as well when facing these killer teams because they are the one player that could really make good use of fend but they need a double to get it and most people will pick block for the big guys. There typically high Av means nothing anymore when it is lowered to that of a Halfing. Maybe a rule like claw doesnt effect big guys might have been an idea?

These arguements are not for online play but for why the skill combo is broken in TT.

Finally Galak keeps saying these killer teams dont take grab or jugga (and he is right i rarely see either of those skills on more than one player in these teams) but why make them a counter to fend at all if he believes no one will take them anyway, those skills were fine as they were mainly to be used by big guys, there was no need to make a counter for a counter and to say no one will take them anyway is just strange because if no one takes them then why bother making the rules that way?

Edit: Once League starts up on fumbbl then we will see what the result is. Then we will be playing the game there as the rules intended and I will be very very suprised if the results arent exactly what everyone is already complaining about.

[Darkson]

Something has to be the best combination. If claw/mb/po gets weakened as a combo what's next... everyone complaining AV9 teams are too good?

Well I didnt want to write in these threads anymore, but the three members of the BBRC are completely missing the point. No one is saying MB is OP or Claw is Op.

Nor did Doubleskulls, and he did get your point, and answered it. The poll was started by Cupcake, the biggest opponent of MB/PO/Claw going, so blame him if you think it's worded wrong.

So now we can add "the poll is badly worded" to the list of "why anyone that thinks MB/PO/Claw is fine is wrong".
How many more things do you want to add to that list before you (and here I do mean the specific "you") start to think maybe you're in the wrong?

[plasmoid]

I think I'll write a more thorough reply tonight. However:

Reasons - Elf teams - their players are too expensive and once you have got a full set of players (e.g. high elves - 2 blitzers 4 catchers and a thrower) then your TV has already increased a lot, now all the elf teams need some blodge SS diving tackle leap Wrestle strip ball and because of all the vital skills they need to win games they have no room or very little room for fend.

..kind of makes you look like a dinosaur.
If you're so massively experiencing that you're getting destroyed on a regular basis (coincidentally not my experience), then you have to consider how many of those skills help you win from the dug-out.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

You can see from my winning record that I am still beating those teams. I have already gone into that earlier in the thread. Every teams build is the same I win the game in the first half then just spend the rest of the game running away so my team doesn't get destroyed and even when runnning away and only allowing my team to be blitzed once a turn if it can be helped my team is often reduced to only 4 players by the end of the game. The skills i selected help me win the game as quickly as possible so that the beating that ensues is irrelevant. Wining is not the problem and I have never said it is.

The problem is the combo is OP. I cannot believe the arrogance on display in this thread that despite 400+ pages on this topic of people complaining about this combo being OP all the evidence that has been supplied that the rules creators do not belive there is even the slightest possibility they may be wrong and the complete refusal to even review the evidence. The post above is a well put together arguement about why the combo is broken and as per usual a small quote is taken out of context by one of the BBRC who then just basically accuses everyone that doesnt agree with them as being a whinge.

[gandresch]

Hi,

I am certainly no friend of Claw/PO/MB, but i've seen two things during this discussion:
- A lot of coaches don't see the potential of Fend, DP and those skills. E.g. letting an elf team only take the "useful" skills doesn't make the team better than the chaos team with Claw/PO/MB. If you optimize your team in a certain way, there is mostly a way to knife you with a certain combination of skills. you have to accept that taking massive amounts of one-sided skills makes your team vulnerable. You therefor can accept this and get blocked by PO et al or take things that help you against this. It doesn't matter what skills you take, there is mostly a way to take advantage (e.g. take Fend instead of Guard makes you weaker for a blocking game, favor Dodge over Tackle makes you weaker against teams with a lot of Dodge and so on). You can't get all the good skills en masse, so make the best out of it!
- Like I said, I am certainly no friend of the three skills in combination. But the discussion reveals, that there is no good alternative instead. All the possibilities I read and the ones which I posted make me certain that a feasible way of changing the skills so that every one is contended is not possible or has at least not been found yet.

I think that especially for FUMBBL the skill combo is something negative. But I have to say, that I am not certain if we will ever find a way to make it work in all kinds of leagues and communities.

Greets,
gan

[Darkson]

I cannot believe the arrogance on display in this thread that despite 400+ pages on this topic of people complaining about this combo being OP all the evidence that has been supplied that the rules creators do not belive there is even the slightest possibility they may be wrong and the complete refusal to even review the evidence.

1. Arrogance - you're correct, and everyone else is wrong? Kettle, meet Mr. Pot.

2. The 400+ page thread was 200 pages of Cupcake ignoring the 200+ pages of evidence to the contrary from many many other posters.

3. See #2

[Mirascael]

[...] I cannot believe the arrogance on display in this thread [...]

Let me check:

GalakStarscraper (Tom Anders), DoubleSkulls (Ian Williams), Darkson, Deathwing...

Garion, could it be that you are sort of a newcomer with this community? That might explain your disbelief.

[spubbbba]

The problem is the combo is OP. I cannot believe the arrogance on display in this thread that despite 400+ pages on this topic of people complaining about this combo being OP all the evidence that has been supplied that the rules creators do not belive there is even the slightest possibility they may be wrong and the complete refusal to even review the evidence. The post above is a well put together arguement about why the combo is broken and as per usual a small quote is taken out of context by one of the BBRC who then just basically accuses everyone that doesnt agree with them as being a whinge.

What evidence?

The vast majority of coaches in tabletop leagues say it is not an issue.
The same goes for coaches from the Cyanide player run leagues and in BB1 there were only 9 teams and AV9 was more common.
The stats from both cyanide's MM and FUMBBL's division show the win ratios are about as expected up till 2200. Above there Chaos may be doing too well but it is a very small sample size.
FUMBBL hasn't had a real competition using the new rules yet just lots of pointless 1 off games. The majors aren't far away and once [L] goes FBB then we'll get some real data.

There is a small minority (about 10-20) of very vocal coaches who hate the new combo. That abomination of a 400 page thread is mostly a couple of idiots ranting and a bunch of people mocking or trolling them. Those who try to have a reasonable discussion like Dode and bucc get drowned out by the lunacy from cbbakke. I note that it is mostly the coaches who play in scheduled leagues who say claw is fine even when combined with PO/MB.

Your evidence seems to consist of RandomOracle's team and Carnis's.

RandomOracle is a very good coach and he may well have played more games with high TV chaos than any other coach so it's not that surprising he does well. If you look at the team it doesn't have much in it's arsenal to stop elves. That's because both and MM are overwhelmingly dominated by bashy teams so his chaos are designed to beat them. Carnis has a good record but not that spectacular and he seems to want to discount results when his team has got a bit beat up.

One of the weaknesses of the chaos team is that they are behind the skill curve, the get block, guard and MB much later than the other bashy races who all start some of those skills and mostly have either more AV9 or regen. Chaos need some ball handling skills too and many of their rival bashy teams start with these or have more MA. In a balanced league where winning matters then they will need anti-elf skills but both MM and are bash heavy so chaos can focus on the bash skills (which helps then get concessions in MM) against high AV teams. If they meet the odd elf team they may lose but are unlikely to take any damage and the loss has no real consequences so they can neglect one important area of the team build.

If Chaos dominate the and [R] majors and all the [L]eagues in FUMBBL then I think you may have a case but until then it is far too early to state there is an issue. I'll be very interested to see how all the CLAW/MB/PO teams do when they face blodge heavy elves with a wizard when 1 loss can ruin your chances or put you out of the competition even if you do devastate the other team