Wild Animal Trait - Pick your preferred solution

redlizard · Post by **redlizard** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:15 pm

I don't like any rule that has you block your own player as you get into the sticky situation of who picks the block die, does that cause a turnover, etc.

I like Plasmoid's idea too, but I'm not sure it's negative enough. Will require playtesting.

I think some of the simple changes are also worth considering like keeping it the way it is except allowing the WA to do nothing or not requiring it to go first.

shlominus · Post by **shlominus** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:39 pm

i think a simple solution would be to remove the "must block an adjacent player" bit from the trait description. then you could choose not to do anything with the wild animal player.

this leaves space for tactical considerations for both coaches and doesn´t force anyone into turnovers because he "has to do" something.

the player will still be hindered by this but won´t disrupt a game for the whole team.

i also feel this would make it´s negative value about equal to bonehead.

Al the Rat · Post by **Al the Rat** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:09 am

I don't know I don't think any of these new rules address the real problem that a WA failure causes turnover. If a bonehead or really stupid fails they lose tackle zones, turn continues. If a treeman takes root, the team is screwed for the drive but otherwise plays as normal. If a WA fluffs his block turn is lost, is this the same with the new ideas?

I'm not to fussed about the eventual resolution, but feel that it needs to bring parity between the big guy negatraits by removing the potential for turnover on an unavoidable dice roll. This means that either the obligatory first move should be changed, or that the forced block should not be mandatory. The existing rule could remain if a dice roll was made to see if it takes effect, or that it remains the same but the WA doesn't have to move first.

What we need is tactical risk management. Give us WA coaches something that we can work with to avoid forced turnovers, and that doesn't allow opposing coaches to play for the WA turnover.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 3:41 am

Easy solution, the opponent picks the die. They decide if your big guy or your star blitzer pay the price.

Matsu · Post by **Matsu** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:07 pm

The "Go Wild" idea is cool and flavorful, but suffers from 2 problems that I see:

1. Dodge rolls? Eek!! I strongly agree with the others who brought up that this is just begging for the animal to fall down and end the WA player's turn. Let him just run around without dodging - it's not like you have any control of his movement.
2. I don't see a comment about how blitzing would work under this rule - what if you've already blitzed this turn? Can the WA make more than 1 blitz block if he happens to run into multiple people? Just need to clarify some things, here.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:19 pm

I am playing a Skaven team in my playtest league this season, and have recently picked up a Rat Ogre. I will be using it to test the current Wild Animal rules.

So far, in the first game he managed to pick up two casualties and caused one premature turn end (though that did deny me a TD.) My general strategy for him has been to set him up well back from the line on defense, using him as a Blitzer once my opponent has committed his team to the left or right zones. He once had to throw a two-dice opponent's favor block, but I wisely took Leader with my first doubles roll on a lineman, and that prevented a turnover. On turn eight of the second half, I had a chance at a go-ahead score but was forced to block with the Rat Ogre first -- two dice my favor, but they came down skull/skull-pow. That's life, I guess.

Given the first game results, I'd say the risk-reward is pretty well aligned. It's true he denied me a TD and used up my Leader re-rolls both halves, but he did remove two of my opponents from the field and frequently dictated changes in my opponent's strategy.

His first skill will be Piling On, which I intend to use on virtually every block even if I would have gotten through the armor anyways -- the side effect of placing the Rat Ogre prone will ensure that I don't have to make a block at the start of every turn. Second skill will, of course, be Block.

You can check out the progress of my team here: http://www.chubbleague.com/chubb/default.asp?p=ro&t=rat

I'll post more results as I play the games.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:36 am

Milo wrote:Given the first game results, I'd say the risk-reward is pretty well aligned. It's true he denied me a TD and used up my Leader re-rolls both halves, but he did remove two of my opponents from the field and frequently dictated changes in my opponent's strategy.

I think a lot of people were playing that Leader RRs could not be used on Big Guys, ECBBL certainly wasn't.

Allowing Leader to be used makes a big difference to the effectiveness of all Big Guys.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:22 pm

Yes Ian but according to bbrc that is the correct way to use it.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:56 pm

sean newboy wrote:Yes Ian but according to bbrc that is the correct way to use it.

I wasn't arguing that, I was pointing out a lot of the earlier posts regarding WA may only be demonstrating the weakness where you can't compensate by getting Leader.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:42 am

No casualties this game, leaving me still tantalizingly short of his first skill. The Rat Ogre cost me a turn here and there -- never on an outright bad block, just by being forced to use him first. I could have scored a fifth time, but the ball scattered to the Rat Ogre on turn 7 and HE CAUGHT IT -- meaning I had to make a block or blitz with him the next turn and was unable to move the ball to my Gutter Runner in scoring position.

Incidentally, I played against another Skaven team who also had a Rat Ogre. Try as I might, I was never able to force him into a turnover. I routinely surrounded him by 3 or 4 rats, forcing him into one die and even two die my favor blocks, but he never failed a block.

I'm still skeptical about Wild Animal being broken as it currently stands. It is true that you need to use them prudently, and there were a couple of drives that I wish I hadn't had him on the field. Overall, though, he's been a nice addition to my team.

Milo

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:23 pm

Milo wrote: His first skill will be Piling On, which I intend to use on virtually every block..

WASHING MACHINE!!!!!!!!

viewtopic.php?t=4622&highlight=

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 2:55 pm

Whether or not a WA "turns out all right" in any given game is immaterial. The fact of the matter is the WA coach cannot make tactical decisions as to how he will ameliorate the effects of WA, only strategic ones. The tactical decisions are entirely in the hands of the opposing coach who can chose to play the ball or choose to play the Wild Animal. To my mind that's bad for the game.

I'm happy to see the WA neutralised by the opposing coach, but I would like the WA coach to make a tactical decision before risking a whole turn. As it stands now, you start your turn, then roll dice to see if you even have a turn.

I would rather see the WA coach either choose to let the WA skip that turn - but lose the team's blitz (as friendly players yell out "FANG!! HEEL!!"). Or have failed forced blocks by WAs not cause turnovers (They can't claim assists, they can't use rerolls, so they're not really part of the flow of the team are they?)

Of those I prefer the first. You could also just allow the coach to declare no action for the WA, without using the team blitz, to keep it simple.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:22 pm

You use the Rat Ogre tactically by not putting him in positions where he can be easily surrounded in the first place. He should NOT be wading through a mass of opposing players. You must shelter him somewhat with your other players and allow him to get into the scrum only when you have the weight of numbers on your side.

phil · Post by **phil** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:41 pm

i have no problem with WA as it is... i used to, but the more i use minotaurs, teh more i see that it's workable... is it the best solution? i doubt it, i'm sure many of the alternates proposed would be better suited in the end, but the current version definitely produces a satisfying game experience for me...

ultimately, getting a rule changed is under the current system is going to be like pulling teeth, house rules are fine, but don't almost all of us play pbem now, tom is very accomodfating when it comes to integrating house rules, but they're already so backlogged with requests as it is...

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:05 pm

Milo wrote:You use the Rat Ogre tactically by not putting him in positions where he can be easily surrounded in the first place. He should NOT be wading through a mass of opposing players. You must shelter him somewhat with your other players and allow him to get into the scrum only when you have the weight of numbers on your side.

The problem is that, especially with Skaven, if you team is getting hammered on the KO's and casualties so you are players down then it gets increasingly difficult to protect a WA in this manner. When it does fail it just makes a bad situation worse.

Talk Fantasy Football

Wild Animal Trait - Pick your preferred solution

Which version of Wild Animal do you like?

Game #2 with the Rat Ogre