Agility rolls

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:37 am

dDog, I thought that was your goal. It is a heck of an idea too. Unfortunately, I too think the fumble rules screw it up.

Troy.

I'm not going to repeat adnaseum the arguments for the incresed fumbles with all modifiers. There are plenty of threads around written by such highly respected people as Galak that cover it.

I'll summerize it for you as you don't seem to have run into them before.

Ag 4 fumbling more than ag 3 with accurate (or ag 3 with strong arm) is a design mechanic that has squat to do with realism (just like the intercept before checking accuracy.) and is used in the game to prodcue the effect that an ag boost is not a no-brain skill choice for throwers. Sure it helps you pick up the ball, sure it helps you dodge, but when it gets down to it, throwing at long ranges (or in tackle zones) due to the increased fumbles requires specialization (the learnig of skills like accurate and strong arm) to increase the modifiers on the roll to prevent fumbles.

Ag 3 throwing a long pass (no other modifiers like weather or tz)
1 fumble.
2 fumble.
3 inaccurate
4 inaccurate
5 accurate.
6 accurate.
Ag 4 throwing the same pass
1 fumble.
2 fumble
3 inaccurate
4 accurate
5 accurate
6 accurate
Ag 3 with accurate (or strong arm) and same pass
1 fumble
2 inaccurate
3 inaccurate
4 accurate
5 accurate
6 accurate

Ag 4 is clearly better than ag 3, but ag 3 + skill is actually better at passing than ag 4 if your goal is to get the ball away from your thrower.

That is a design goal that has nothing to do with balancing teams (comparing ag 3 humans with ag 4 elves) but an ag 3 human thrower who could take an ag boost or skip it to take accurate or strong arm instead.
Or an ag 4 elf thrower who could take ag 5 or a skill instead.

That is something you might want to get used to as I've heard JJ say personally that it isn't going away anytime soon from the official rules.

That said, I know the league I learned in back in 3rd ed opted to prevent range modifers from causing fumbles so it is not unheard of.

Rest.
I'll have to check the math, but saying the roll needs to be higher than the ag seems like it would cause more fumbles than right now.... .. I'm sure there is ugly wording in there we could get to eventually. But once you start looking at the target number rolled to determine fumbles, you may as well just skip the proposed math and return to 7- ag + mods......

Fronko · Post by **Fronko** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:02 am

Jackal, I for one never realized, what the exact reasons for handling fumbles that way were. Thanks for clearing that up for me now!

David Bergkvist · Post by **David Bergkvist** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:18 pm

Mad Jackal wrote:That is a design goal that has nothing to do with balancing teams (comparing ag 3 humans with ag 4 elves) but an ag 3 human thrower who could take an ag boost or skip it to take accurate or strong arm instead.
Or an ag 4 elf thrower who could take ag 5 or a skill instead.

But nobody in their right mind would ever turn down an AG boost on their thrower just to get accurate. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever if accurate is slightly better in the non-fumbling department than +1 AG.

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:57 pm

David Bergkvist wrote:
Mad Jackal wrote:That is a design goal that has nothing to do with balancing teams (comparing ag 3 humans with ag 4 elves) but an ag 3 human thrower who could take an ag boost or skip it to take accurate or strong arm instead.
Or an ag 4 elf thrower who could take ag 5 or a skill instead.
But nobody in their right mind would ever turn down an AG boost on their thrower just to get accurate. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever if accurate is slightly better in the non-fumbling department than +1 AG.

I dis-agree.

I have seen it done, and done it myself. Many a dedicated pocket passer in the 3 leagues I have been take accurate over the ag boost. Especially the 4 ag ones or 3 ag with sure hands.

If the thrower plays deep he'll never need to dodge. And reducing the fumbles is worth giving up the extra pip to pick up the ball.

I expect in LRB 5.0 this number will even go up when ag boosts would be 40k TV and strong arm 30 k and accurate only 20k. Many coaches might decide thier dedicated passer doesn't need ag boosted.

David Bergkvist · Post by **David Bergkvist** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:36 pm

But:
1. It only matters if the modifiers from TZs and range is -1 or worse, and with those modifiers, an AG 3 player with accurate only succeeds on 4+, so you have to be pretty desperate to attempt a pass in those circumstances,
2. What does it matter if your pass is a fumble rather than just inaccurate? The ball ends up on the ground and your turn ends, i e you're in trouble, in both cases (it is highly unlikely that an inaccurate pass scatters to a teammate who catches it, so that scenario can be ignored).
3. Since it's more difficult to obtain +1 AG, you're wasting a chance to have an AG 4 accurate thrower after your next skill roll.
4. It is generally not a good idea to rely on fixed strategies such as "oh, a thrower never needs to dodge". It is much better to have flexible players.

And: even if it was a good idea to take accurate over +1 AG on a thrower, so what if this is changed so that +1 AG becomes the obvious choice? Only 1/18 of throwers will roll 11 on their first star player roll anyways.

I expect in LRB 5.0 this number will even go up when ag boosts would be 40k TV and strong arm 30 k and accurate only 20k. Many coaches might decide thier dedicated passer doesn't need ag boosted.

So even if the proposed changed was implemented, the all "all-important" non-automatic choice of +1 AG over accurate would still be non-automatic.

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:12 pm

Look, what do you want me to say? "Oh, yes, you must be right." ?

Why don't we settle for "I agree that many think the ag boost is the way to go." ?

I'm not going to drag this any further off topic than it is. The reason for the design has been stated. That was all that was needed.

Please start your own thread about the merits of always taking an ag boost some-where else.

DesTroy · Post by **DesTroy** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:08 am

Mad Jackal:

Read your reply...very well-written and an excellent explanation. Thanx man!

I still think picking up the ball should be closer to automatic (that is, not based on AG but instead something that most players should be able to do fairly easily), but basically you've pegged the main reasons why I don't like to throw the ball.