HE Wrestle - next skill?

[DoubleSkulls]

[quote="fen']Sneaky git is not worth the effort because if you're fouling you should be fouling with enough assists to break AV on a 6+ imo.[/quote]

The nice thing about SG is that it lets you foul without assists without fear. So your Wrestle/tackle player takes down a gutter runner with wrestle. You come in & foul without assists (because everyone else is covering the other GR etc) - without SG you won't foul. Needing an 8 is rubbish odds for a 70k basic cost player against an 80k basic player.

However SG means that doesn't matter since if you roll 7 or less you can't be sent off - so you can foul regardless of assists if the target is worth it. You are actually more likely to get a KO or Cas than you are to get sent off.

DP & SG combined they always give better odds of getting your oppoent off the pitch than being sent off yourself - getting up to 2:1 odds with target rolls of 6 or less. That means you probably are reasonable fouling players worth a lot less than a 110k line elf.

[Tante Kaethe]

The nice thing about SG is that it lets you foul without assists without fear.

All I can say is that it really works . Ian gave me the same tip when my Dirty Player Linorc skilled up and rolled a double (see viewtopic.php?t=22083&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30). I took Sneaky Git (meaning that the Lino is now worth a hefty 100K) but I never regretted it and this player was one of the most feared players in our league. I used to foul on every opportunity as long as the player fouled is worth more than 50K. Helped me win the league (but beware - it doesn't make you popular ).

Cheers

Tante Käthe

[fen]

Well like I said, I normally never foul unless I can reduce the opposing AV to a 5 (with assists). Which means Sneaky git would only be relevant on a double 1 or 2. Not worth the 20K in TV imo.
.I don't see the point in taking random pot shots without assists - exception: If you seriously outnumber the opposing team (by at least 3 men). As I want to save my foul each turn for something that is going to work. When I play to foul, I play to eliminate (KO+) with that foul, or continuously stun problem players (Wardancers, Blodge stars etc.) I want my foul action to result in an injury roll, anything less is unacceptable. As a consequence I don't see the point in sneaky git, as I feel gang fouling is the only way to fly.

[Falkom]

can you edit the above to indicate how many SPP each player has?

Blitzer - Blodge, Sidestep - 22 SP
Blitzer - Block, Tackle, Stripball - 23 SP
2xLineman - Blodge - 18, 23 SP
Lineman - Kick, Guard - 22 Sp
Lineman - Block, Guard - 18 SP
Lineman - Block - 8 Sp
Lineman - 3 SP
Thrower - Pass, Safe throw, Accurate - 11 SP
Catcher - Catch, Block, Dodge, Skill? - 37 SP
Catcher - Catch, Block,+AG, Leap - 42 SP
Catcher - Catch, Block, Dodge, +AG, Leap - 51 SP
RR:3
310.000 Gp

League have 24 teams (2 divisions) - Lizardmen, Chaos, 4xHuman, 6xOrcs, CDwarves, 2xDwarves, DElves, Ogres, Khemri, Skaven, Norse, Nurgle... I cant recall remaining two...

If you give him Side Step, this is the place to put him, but it's a blitz-me position. He may well end up getting hit sometimes, but if you're afraid of getting a 130k AV7 player blitzed he shouldn't get Side Step.

In defense I usually use Blitzer to open a path and then run 1st and 3rd Catcher to try to harass receiver. In the same time I try to protect them with screen of lineman in order to prevent opponent to gang up on them (AV7 is fragile after all). If I manage to take a ball than it is nice, otherwise opponent usually start blitzing my other players in attempt to move the cage - my 2 catchers hover just few squares behind cage waiting for opportunity to either attempt blitz or to attempt to pick up a ball, if carrier is knocked by somebody else. It is very hard to keep them covered so opponent often must use 3-4 players for that.

In offence I usually use all 3 Catchers (Catcher No2 is AV6 ) so I take the ball with Thrower, move him deep and in touch with Catcher No2. If opponent manage to put some tackle zone on thrower I can either block him or hand over to catcher who can make a run. Catchers No1 and 3 are deep in opponent field if he is playing shallow defense or in case of deep defense they are lurking near LOS while I send few linos as deep as I can. When attempting to make a TD against shallow defense I either use a pass/hand off combo and make a TD with Catchers or if defense is deep I make a mini cage few squares (including at least 2 Catchers) behind LOS, so that opponent need to chose to blitz linos who are now in range to make TD or try to blitz cage and put some tackle zones on ball carrier.

As for skill choice - I am now convinced that Pass block will not be used so often, and I would not like to be on receiving end of failed Dauntless with AV7 so I will probably choose SS. Other options include Jump up (need to be knocked down to use it ) or maybe sure feet just to improve mobility?

sorry for such a long post...

[DoubleSkulls]

I don't see the point in taking random pot shots without assists

I think you are missing the point.

You take "random pot shots" because assists only affect the chance of getting an armour break - not the chance of being sent off.

So instead of having to get 3~4 assists around the victim to get a good return - i.e. chance of being sent off vs chance of getting an injury roll - you don't need to bother.

e.g. a War Dancer just taken down by your wrestle guy - and no one else is able to assist without compromising position. So foul with an SG. 8+ needed for the break which isn't brilliant - but double 1,2 or 3 and you aren't sent off. So you can foul worthy targets without worrying about dragging your team out of poisiton and without worrying about failing to get an armour break and getting sent off.

[fen]

No, I get the point. It's just not how I roll. I have a completely different fouling style and mentallity, one that makes Sneaky Git a completely worthless skill. I want my foul action to always result in an armour break with +1 for DP, otherwise I won't use it that turn.

Additionally my team never goes out of position to foul, I cage up near the foul target (ball carrier obviously not adjacent) and then roll over it with 4+ Assists. If I don't have that many, I won't foul (exception - Wardancers).

[mattgslater]

If I'm fouling with a Sneaky Git against an AV7 opponent, I'm trying to get an assist. One. That's easy. If I have Dirty Player, I'm also trying to get one assist, or maybe two. I never thought of it before now, but I see it now. You want to be breaking on a 7+ or 5+ so you can foul with a reduced chance of getting caught, rather than with a 6+ or 5+. This way you can foul low-armor teams without wasting actions: get one assist and you're on your way with a 7+ roll.

I'm still not totally sure I'd do it. I think they nerfed fouling WAY too much in the 5th editions (funny, I think if you took the 3rd ed. rules for fouling and made all the LRB5 changes from previous versions with none of the stuff in between, I think you're much closer to a good balance).

[mattgslater]

That Lineman and Blitzer with 23 SPP? Get each of them a touchdown so they go up if they get MVPs, then when one of them gets a Cas, try to score with him and you've got your other corner. I think getting SS to the Blodge Linos is ideal: if your opponents don't put Grab on the line you can put them up on the line and seriously reduce your casualty count by preventing chain-blocks, simultaneously clogging the middle or forcing the blitz to run wide. A commitment to Side Step is a commitment to a shallow defense: the trick is in steeling yourself against the remote possibility of a wipeout on a Quick Snap (a QS doesn't usually mean trouble, by the way: just once in awhile) by trading it in for a near-certainty of leaving the ball in the opponent's backfield where you can get a TD and reset the board before the hurtin' gets too heavy.

Don't bother thinking about offense, unless one team or another is a total defensive demon, in which case you can do it a little. If you can score once on offense, your goal is to be kicking for the rest of the game and never have to do it again. Focus your attention on defense. That's what matters. Master the two-turn defensive score and you'll dominate the league, if you haven't already.

Hey, numbering your players, can you show me how you normally set up on defense against two or three distinct opponents of your choice? Here's a convenient format, with the line of scrimmage at the top of the diagram. Just replace the two dashes with double-digit numbers and keep it in code so it stays even. Just the set-up. I just want to see what you do, and see if any of us can learn anything or offer some tips.

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Also, what opponents do you consider your major competition/rival? What's your record?

[DoubleSkulls]

No, I get the point. It's just not how I roll. I have a completely different fouling style and mentallity, one that makes Sneaky Git a completely worthless skill. I want my foul action to always result in an armour break with +1 for DP, otherwise I won't use it that turn.

The nice thing about SG is that is means you can foul pretty indiscriminately. If you've got DP then you've got a +1 to injury if you get though, if you don't get through, foul again next turn

TBH I can't see a strong argument against SG if you've already got DP. The is articularly true on elven teams who don't want to be grouping up for a foul since keeping play spread works to their advantage. Elf, IMO, should take both or neither.

[PubBowler]

Elf, IMO, should take both or neither.

Pro elf lineman with SG & DP 100k with no doubles. Lovely Jubbley.

[Falkom]

what opponents do you consider your major competition/rival? What's your record?

This is my record from previous and current season:
W-D-L
Humans 2-1-1
Orcs 3-0-3
CDwarves 1-0-1
Dwarves 2-0-0
DElves 1-0-1
Ogres 1-0-0
Chaos 1-0-1
Necro 1-0-0
Skaven 0-0-1
WElves 1-0-1
Lizardmen 1-0-0

Mostly I have problem with orcs but my longest streak of losses came up after decimation against Claw/MB Chaos team (9 casualties).

1. Blitzer - Blodge, Sidestep - 22 SP
2. Blitzer - Block, Tackle, Stripball - 23 SP
3,4. 2xLineman - Blodge - 18, 23 SP
5. Lineman - Kick, Guard - 22 Sp
6. Lineman - Block, Guard - 18 SP
7. Lineman - Block - 8 Sp
8. Lineman - 3 SP
9. Lineman - Wrestle, Daunteless - 16 SPP
10. Thrower - Pass, Safe throw, Accurate - 11 SP
11. Catcher - Catch, Block, Dodge, Skill? - 37 SP
12. Catcher - Catch, Block,+AG, Leap - 42 SP
13. Catcher - Catch, Block, Dodge, +AG, Leap - 51 SP

Usuall setups

[mattgslater]

Assuming you take Side Step for #11...

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-- -- -- --|-- -- 08 07 09 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- 01 -- --|06 04 -- -- -- 03 05|-- 02 11 --
-- -- 12 --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --

This way your Side Steppers are on the corner, and unless your opponent has a not-terribly-slow guy with Grab (don't do it in that case) or scores a Cas on the Blitz, you can force them to run inside and go head-on against the Blodgers (at ST4, no less). You know you got 'em if they blitz your Kicker.

If symmetry is your thing (or when/if 07 gets SG), then trade 07 out for 02 on the line, and put 13 behind and inside of 11, to mirror 12's position on the left side (this is an especially annoying setup against ST3 Frenzy).

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-- 01 -- --|06 04 -- -- -- 03 05|-- -- 11 --
-- -- 12 --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- 13 -- --

Once 03 or 04 has Side Step, swap him with 02 at nose. When both have Side Step, this will get very scary:

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-- 01 -- --|05 04 -- -- -- 03 02|-- 06 11 --
-- -- 12 --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --

or swap up with:

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-- -- -- --|-- -- 08 07 09 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- 01 -- --|02 04 -- -- -- 03 05|-- 06 11 --
-- -- 12 --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --

Either way, you get to direct your opponent's blitz away from the kicker, as that's the only place they can move a Guard guy to blitz 2d with a ST3 player (or move just anybody up and do it with ST4). Woe betide the Blood Bowl world should 02 roll doubles and take Guard in that setup.

Frankly (and I don't know why I'm just realizing this), the opportunity cost of a DP/SG player on this team as a starter is huge. You might be better starting him off with a bread-and-butter skill, like Side Step or Dodge, and leaving him in at nose tackle where he is. You don't need another specialist.

Of course, eventually, people will start countering you by putting Grab in as a #4 or #5 selection on Blitzers, BCs, etc., but a) that'll take awhile, and b) if you do have a DP by then you now know who to foul. Grab is usually taken on blockers instead, where it tends to rank between a mid-late selection and not-at-all. If your opponent commits one low-MA blocker to one side, so as to blitz your WZ, well, you know which way to kick, don't you? More likely, they'll send that guy inside, which is only a problem if they're Dwarfs and have Tackle too.

[mattgslater]

Ooh. This is how you protect a DP (07) and get use of Side Step. I don't know how I didn't think of it earlier

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-- 01 -- --|05 04 -- -- -- 03 11|-- -- 07 --
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[Falkom]

tnx matt... this is most usefull advices... will try some of them in playoff and let you know results