A few thoughts on Khemri

[Ullis]

I don't like the sound of Break Tackle early although it would work as a cage busting threat too. Mighty Blow and Guard are much better skills for them. The guardians inevitable block a lot and MB helps maintain superior numbers. Guard is just great on ST5 players. I've given Break Tackle as a third skill on guardians and then I almost never use it.

The skeletons aren't that fragile really and at the very least they can't be compared to skinks or snotlings. They're not stunties, they have ST3 and Thick Skull.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

BT is bad. Works better for bad players who find themselves needing it.

[Shteve0]

BT is bad. Works better for bad players who find themselves needing it.

Dear all

Please do not feed the troll.

Thank you

Shteve0

[RogueThirteen]

BT is bad. Works better for bad players who find themselves needing it.

Dear all

Please do not feed the troll.

Thank you

Shteve0

Indeed.

[Iranian Spy]

This thread's been really inspiring. Your comments made me think of playing Khemri where I had never wanted to previously. Thanks guys, I'm off to try them out

[Heff]

BT is bad. Works better for bad players who find themselves needing it.

Jimmy, you just gotta love him! From the modesty of his tag to the THUNDERBOLTS of wisdom from the heights of Olympus. Truly we are not worthy.

[Chris]

I don't like the sound of Break Tackle early although it would work as a cage busting threat too. Mighty Blow and Guard are much better skills for them. The guardians inevitable block a lot and MB helps maintain superior numbers. Guard is just great on ST5 players. I've given Break Tackle as a third skill on guardians and then I almost never use it.

The skeletons aren't that fragile really and at the very least they can't be compared to skinks or snotlings. They're not stunties, they have ST3 and Thick Skull.

Indeed, I hope in my heart they slightly irritate CLPOMB players

[mattgslater]

BT is bad. Works better for bad players who find themselves needing it.

Jimmy, you just gotta love him! From the modesty of his tag to the THUNDERBOLTS of wisdom from the heights of Olympus. Truly we are not worthy.

Jimmy is an excellent coach, in great part because of his super-tight team design. I don't think you should be immediately dismissive of his immediate dismissal of Break Tackle. It's good enough on a TG (ST5, no Loner) that it's worth taking as a late pick. It's frickin' awesome on a ST6 player: dodging into 3x TZ on 8/9 to drop a 2d punch on the carrier. Add Block or Stand Firm to discourage half-die hits, and make sure the team keeps sufficient Guard and MB/POMB to prevent mobbing, and that one easy move is guaranteed to redirect any drive. But as cool as it is from time to time, it's too easy to negate, just by forcing more than one dodge. As a general principle, there are two power skills available in the S category, and I'd want both before I considered anything else on more than a one-off basis.

@ Smeborg: When it comes to MB on TGs, development is a secondary concern. Primary is the need to be man-up, to force your opponent to stare at what I call on FUMBBL the "Sea of Little Red Dots" and do low-percentage important things instead of contemplating easy actions. Guard is normally the better skill here, but all the ST5 means you can take your time before picking up too much of it. (Kind of like Chaos.)

[Heff]

No nothing about him as a coach. Just like to be shown, not told and dismissed. Rather like you have just done.

[Hitonagashi]

Jimmy, to play devils advocate for a minute;

If I told you I'd argued frequently with Ansidrin and Woodstock, and both of them are adamant the best skill for a saurus is Break Tackle (after block), how would you defend that? I fully accept that both are better coaches than me, and I think you and I both have our playstyles shaped by the relatively poor standard of play that the Box offers.

Nowadays, I think of Break Tackle like an inverted bell curve. New players rely on it too much, veteran lizardman players don't need it, and experts use it to it's fullest extent.

I do however, think that unless you can maintain a 60%+ winning record in the Box at all TV's (and presumably cyanide MM) with no break tackle, you don't know how to play Lizardmen well enough to use Break Tackle properly.

[mattgslater]

I think there are a lot of skills on similar inverted bell curves. Frenzy, for instance.

If I can answer the question you posed to Jimmy, Hito, I'd posit that access to G skills, the difference in MA, the Apothecary vs. Decay/Regen, and the quantity of +ST players are the difference-makers there. Block + BT means a 2+/TRR dodge for a key blitz is about 3% to turnover with a RR, or a little under 20% without (not to mention the two extra MA squares); for a TG, the turnover shot is a bit over 5% (with) or 26% (without). Likewise, a Saurus Blitzer can get skills like Tackle, to make a blitzing BT/B/POMBer that much more effective at peak. A TG can play more crazy games than a Saurus, because he can dodge into a zone, or even two if it's critical, while a Saurus would likely only dodge into one zone if it would lead to a play on the ball. But the main use of BT is dodging into the clear, and unless you're facing DT or Tentacles, ST5 is no better than ST4.

Also, look at the rest of the roster. A couple Saurii with BT can quickly reposition themselves when the play goes crazy and the action gets redirected: there are still five big uglies ready to lay that scaly wood. Conversely, all four Tomb Guardians have to hammer midfield in order to remain effective. In space, without support, they're worthless. So being able to free themselves up to reposition, while useful perhaps (and yes, more useful at the high and low ends), is less important for the Tomb Guardian than it is for the Saurus.

Similarly, that Saurus will probably have time to get all his skills in order. He's ST4, AV9, Block, and not particularly a glowing target. TGs are tough in the context of the game (ST5, AV9, no Block, Regen), but in terms of survival, after Decay, it's about the same as being AV9 and having no Apothecary. Break Tackle can kill you. Guard, Mighty Blow... these skills cannot kill you.

[Waldorf28]

There's a place for BT as a first skill on a TG. Just not on all of them!

[Smeborg]

My views on Break Tackle stem mainly from the following experiences:

- Playing with and against Ogres, for whom I consider B-Tackle to be by far the best first normal skill in both leagues and tournaments

- Playing with Chaos Dwarfs, for whom I consider B-Tackle as the best first normal skill on both Bull Centaurs in both leagues and tournaments

- Playing against well-coached Lizardmen in leagues and tournaments, for whom I consider at least one Saurus with B-Tackle as first skill to be an optimal skill choice

- Playing with the Beast of Nurgle, for whom I consider B-Tackle to be a first or second normal skill pick

On Tomb Guardians, I doubt whether Break Tackle is a good first skill pick (my normal skill choice for them would be: M-Blow, Guard, S-Firm), but it is clearly a skill you would pick on a TG if you were lucky enough to get to 6 skills. But where exactly B-Tackle should be in the priority ranking, I am open-minded.

Interestingly, TGs are not the only candidates for B-Tackle on the Khemri team. I suggest it is a good late skill pick on the Blitz-Ras (to complement their role as Blitzers and Receivers), and also a good second doubles pick on Thro-Ras (after Dodge). Last season I had a Thro-Ra with +1ST and Dodge. B-Tackle would obviously have been an outstanding pick for him on a subsequent doubles roll.

I like the mobility that B-Tackle brings to otherwise clumsy players, especially on relatively clumsy teams. Other teams on which at least one B-Tackle works well (Lizzies, CDs, Ogres, Nurgle) are among those with the lowest aggregate AG (between 19 and 27). Very few other teams fall into this category (just Dwarfs and Orcs, I think), so B-Tackle has to be worth exploring in practice for Khemri (18).

Hope that helps.

[swilhelm73]

best first normal skill on both Bull Centaurs in both leagues and tournaments

Really? With so many dwarves on the roster I would presume BT is a little less important. At least less so then block.

Another BT candidate - Flesh Golems, probably for skill #4 - Block, Guard, MB, BT.

[SunDevil]

I've played Khemri for four league seasons (middle of 4th season now) and absolutely love the team, Decay and 4 AG and all.

In league play, the MiB/Guard route is the way to go with TGs. Nothing earth-shattering but, as others have said, it helps you go numbers up and the Guard reinforces their natural ST-superioty so well. Few teams can handle a Khemri team just a player or two up and mobbed together in a 5ST-Guard nightmare web!

As for Break Tackle, in a league it absolutely has its place as a third skill (maybe even #2) on at least one TG because the team is so slow up front and the TGs get marked by Zombies or Lineman or whatever so easily. This leads your front line to begin drifting apart and that's a problem when containment is your number one priority (when the cas don't come of course!). Being able to Dodge one TG out reliably to get him back into position and away from that Zombie that keeps getting back up can make all the difference. It also helps that TG escort the Thro-Ra downfield, making your cage or screen way more effective.

I'd even argue that one BT is more valuable for the Khemri than the Lizards because they have the speed to recover from rough positioning while the Khemri do not.

In a tourney, I like no skills on the TGs but this is only theorybowl. I'd just take my chances with 2 die blocks and trudging forward with the team. And fouling.