Khemri Tactics

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fidius
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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by fidius »

Listened to your 3DBcast, Chance, good stuff. However I think your pick-3 MVP houserule really changes your Khemri approach. Being able to somewhat reliably skill up TGs and BRs means you don't have to worry so much about being stuck with a skill choice for an entire season, which is what most people in random-MVP environments are faced with.

The real trick to developing them, it seems to me, is that you need Guard before the bash teams spam it, and you need Tackle before the finesse teams get Dodge. But because they level so slowly, you're behind the curve most of the time. Fortunately the rookie team is naturally pretty good against rookie bash. As a result Khemri's record in bash-heavy TV-matched leagues is quite good. But if you run into elves often, optimizing for control (which I think of as Guard, plus Grab/SF later) will not help you as much as Tackle.

Which I suppose is why people recommend MB early: it has the virtue of being effective against both bash and finesse (plus it helps you skill faster). It's unreliable against av8+, however, and vs av7 you have to catch them first, which vs ag4 is not easy. I much prefer to play with Guard on my TGs, but MB seems the better long-term choice in theory. (If Plasmoid recommends it, it must be right!) :)

On the other hand, if you embrace the idea of inducements, a slow-developing team is perhaps a virtue. Khemri are, as you say, a lean core roster, and in a developed perpetual league environment you will be behind the curve more often than not. This is another factor in favour of Guard, since Guard limits his advancement (and cost) for the foreseeable future, barring lucky MVPs. A Setekh or Ithaca, or especially bribes, can really help, and you can plan your development around them.

Re: fouling. If it's true that Khemri need to control via player-removal as well as via positioning, it's clear that they need not only the MB but also solid DP and fouling skills as well. Fouling's tricky on a control team, though, because positioning and man-advantage are both so very important. Here's where I'm not sure Guard is a good doubles choice on skeletons. Guard puts them in position to be hit next turn, which substantially shortens their lifespan. Sneaky Git enables them to foul without needing to disrupt your "red rover" line to get the assists. Less reliable, yes, but you can get a boot in every turn, without as much fear of going down a man. The problem is skilling that SG up to DP later, which seems like it would take forever without an explicit plan to force TDs with him. Bit of an adventure, but SG/DP would be a very nice skellie imo. Plus, if you like 3 skels on the LOS vs bash, you really only have space for 1 more (assuming you keep a Throw-Ra on the field, which is a good idea for the SH), and since a mobile DP skel is a requirement, doesn't the Guard skel end up on the line a lot? I'd rather he not be there....

We'll see how it goes, I think I will continue to take as much Tackle as I can in order to shore up the obvious Elf weakness this season, and try to focus on honing my fouling game. Tackle also has the interesting effect of routing your dodgy opponent to where you want him to go -- Elves hate that skill! Ultimately Guard spam plus fouling is probably where I'd like to see the team go, but that depends on TG survival as well as some lucky Skeleton casualties.

But there really is no good answer. Strategically-placed Tackle and Guard combined with a smattering of MB and DP strikes me as a solid diversified build when presented with such uncertainty. That, and roll 10s...

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burgun824
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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by burgun824 »

I'm not a big fan of Sneaky Git to be honest. I think you loose more in the TV carrying it then you gain by having it. Because you can so easily put yourself out of position with Khemri if you're not careful, I'm not fouling with them unless I feel the odds of it are in my favor. And in that case I'm throwing as many bodies onto the poor sap as I can to make sure he's carted off. So Sneaky Git is really only going to realistically save me from a double 1 or double 2. The +30k on a lino doesn't seem worth it to me for that. I'd rather have guard to play to their natural strength advantage.

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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by SunDevil »

fisius - Great wirte up and several solid points! You are 100% right - our Pick-3 MVP rule helps the TGs a lot. That is why I like a combo of MiB and Guard on them as they will eventually get a few cas to get Guard or you can pick MiB to get Guard faster. They throw so many 2d and 3d blocks that the cas will eventually come. It is slower than our Pick-3 system but still (relatively) reliable. Even with our system, it took me 4 seasons to have four three-skill (or better) TGs. Once they get Guard and MiB, anything else is just icing. They play wonderfully at that stage and you still benefit from the lean roster and inducements, as you pointed out.

I have no problem with Tackle on the Blitz-Ras early, especially if you see a lot of Elves in your league. It is good for hitting and also good for directing traffic, like you said. I've found the DP Skelly is good for that as well. :P

Speaking of DP, I love Guard on the Skellies because it makes 3DBs easier. I would never take DP on a Guard Skelly or vice versa. I would not take SG as it could be Guard unless that Skel already had DP, then I would consider it. But I'd probably still take Kick. :P

Let us know how your team does this season!

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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by babass »

Digger Goreman wrote:Well, there is cheese and there is cheese.... Khemri is rather one dimensional and seeks to slaughter through your opponents team while rarely playing the ball.... It is most useful to do, as I coincidentally did today, to wipe out the other team and grind them into dust... only then could I "outball" the opposition.... Khemri is a destroyer and, as mentioned here, should be optimized to do so... really not being built/buildable for anything else....

Is it as bad as any of the dwelves? Rarely....

The dichotomy of extremes I see in BB is avoidance teams (generally ag4/equivalence in starting skills), and highly armored bashing.... An old FUMBBL article on Why Necros Don't Make the Finals really speaks to this....

Now having played a handful of games (as opposed to the hundreds you can log on FUMBBL) I can still say that my future "handful of games" opponents are in trouble: 3/4 TGs now have mighty blow and a BR and TR will be getting their first skills also... so I'm happily taking in your article to improve my team/game....

To reiterate: in a world of dwelves and spam, khemri is nearly "non-fat" on the cheese scale....

(btw, decay and niggles are a joke on AV9+....)
it's a good challenge to play them.
but, i would just improve them giving them all players: "Thick Skull"

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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by mattgslater »

Mummies too should have Decay and Thick Skull. :)

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fidius
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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by fidius »

Yeah, I think you need the Decay to differentiate from Mummies, otherwise you might as well just go back to making them the same player. Which is a curious side issue: TBRC go through all the effort to create a whole separate player when the real problem all along was that MB was (is) too powerful. Split up MB into +AV and +Inj give Mummies only one, and keep them the same. Anyway.

Had the pleasure of 2 games on Gameday last weekend: highly developed Chaos Dwarf and highly developed Human. CDs had only 1 ClawPOMB. Humans were coached by probably the best coach in our league. Both had plenty of Guard, lots of Stand Firm, and copious Mighty Blow (Blood Bowl canon, in other words -- what else would you take?) and I had all kinds of trouble. Vs CDs I induced Ramtut, Merc DP Skel (mine was MNG), Bribe, and Wiz. Vs Humans I induced Setekh, Ithaca, Bribe, Babe, and Wiz.

Neither game was close. Course, game 1, Ramtut was KO'd by a Rock on Turn 0, and Turn 1 I lost a Tomb Guardian to a rookie Mino blitz (-AV) -- was just a matter of time. Game 2 was going OK as I forced him to score early, but then went sideways as I made my move down the sideline Turn 6 or so but then 2x bothdown/skulled the skellie hit that would have cleared the path. Only highlight was rolling 6=DEAD on a clever (I thought) push-play gang foul on his League-famous killer Blitzer... only to have him Apo to BH. :( Total stat line after both games combined was: 0-4 TDs, 0-7 CAS (zero CAS? Yes that's right), 10 SPPs, no skills, +20k gold, lost TG.

So yeah, not so great. It'll be a tough go this season, as the remaining schedule reads 3 more Dwarf teams (2x second-season CD, 1x highly developed monster Dorf) and 5 Elf (Dark, Dark, Pro, High, Wood).

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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by SunDevil »

They have tough games early, no doubt. But stay with them! And don't forget to foul with Tomb Guardians when the games get out of hand! :)

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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by Digger Goreman »

Despite your TGs, this was an attack of the light brigade! By design, inducements only make up ~33% of the difference and, at these high levels, your boys were on a fool's errand....

Random event took away most of that slim chance right off the bat....

Good luck in recovery... Hope you kick 'em hard in the end.... !)

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Re: Khemri Tactics

Post by crimsonsun »

My League Khemri sides go up and down divisions just below the top flight currently, I seem to be having a real difficulty cracking that final stage but to be fair to myself I keep getting dice Raped on injuries/failed regenerate rolls.

Khemri are all about Control, Control Control, your play should mean you can achieve a Draw against any team accept Vampires without causing a single Casualty or KO during the match if you are positioning properly if you have a mid tv non bloated side, (And you dont get arsed f*cked on the kick off table - I HATE Perfect Defence but its Pitch invasion that takes the bone).

Tomb Guardians, are Guard/MB (I swap between them for first skill) then Grab Stand Firm, Doubles obviously Block, then I like 1 frenzy, while any others get either blodge or Tackle... Though I do not recommend dodge unless you have enough supporting guard or a lone guardian will get singled out, though if you get 2+blodgers your laughing as most opponents dont even try to counter them. Tomb Guardians need to loose decay and go Av8 Thick Skull IMO

Blitz Ra's provide your squad with its utility really, I always build a killer - MB, Tackle, PO, Juggernaut, Jump Up and the other varies build depending on his rolls though I aim for a utility marker/sweeper. Blitz Ra's should have Thick Skull

Throw Ra's - Are sadly vital bloat, with crap all useful skill choices past block, tackle, Fend Kick or Return/Kick, doubles Dodge obviously then it depends on there build. Throw Ra's should have Thick Skull, Sure Hands, and fend losing Passing for Agility and becoming Run Ra's IMO

Skeletons I build 3 up with Wrestle, Dirty player Fend, dodge on doubles and Diving Tackle on a 2nd, and 3 up Block Tackle Fend, Guard on Doubles with Diving Tackle on a second. I take +ag but dont alter the build while I ignore Ma/Av unless it has a Strength increase at which point I will consider +av on a non double 10 after block...

The Key with Khemri is not over committing or throwing players into contact, like an Elf side you ideally will allow you opponent only a single blitz action with which to hit you when you defending, this is because you not only have Av7 on more than half your team but you are critically short of actual blocking/pitch control skills until much later on. I use my Khemri to block the oppositions movement without the use of multiple dodges (preferably though Tackle), but the most difficult part of this is know when your better off letting the opponent score against attempting to hold out but conceding right at the end of the half and when to be aggressive on defence though the later is actually not worth it 9/10 as you need to consider not only attacking the ball carrier but also what you can do with the ball afterwards and doing so puts you at risk of poor bounces or throw in's from the crowd that cost me at least 1 or two matches per season.

The other defensive tactic to learn is when to try for the defensive touch down and when to instead hunker down and just make it impossible for the opposing team to score instead. (basically if you get the ball deep in your half you need 5 turns to score, shallow 4, half wayline 3, and two is only worth it if you get the ball in there back field.

Blitzes are a double edged sword for Khemri defences while you must always set up when receiving with these in mind and I rarely place more than 5 players in tackle zones on my offensive kick off, keeping at least 1 preferably two Tomb Guardians free. Also do not get drawn into blitzing more than 3 squares into the opposing defence as this will leave these forward players highly exposed. The key to Khemri offence though is making sure you have 4 defensive players ready for ball protection from the kick off 2 of these need Guard if possible ready to form a cage/screen as soon as you receive the ball.

When planning Khemri blocks do not throw 2die blocks that lack block/wrestle until all the important moves are done (MOVE Priority is pivotal in this team) and even then only do so if you can afford a negative result. Think about any follow ups carefully, as you cannot escape if marked. generally Tomb Guardians need 3die blocks to be effective but this is not overly difficult to achieve once they all have Guard, and 2+ have Grab as long as you plan properly. Also always look at Chain pushes to not only open up more blocks against weak players but also as a source of additional movement on your very slow team, even better if it not only pushes you forward but also removes tackle zones.

When facing Wizards set up slightly looser with a cage made out of L shaped formations that are 2squares apart and make sure your second Throw Ra cannot be caught in the same fireball as the ball carrier, normally its best if they float slightly behind the cage. Until you have Stand Firm/Side Step on your Tomb Guardians NEVER go near the side lines, Surfing plus Decay = DEAD DEAD DEAD, not only that but with your lack of Agility the flanks will only lead to problems as you cannot alter your advance if you become stuck - stick to the centre. You also need a str4+ Frenzy player (with Block obviously) for pushing throw bash sides or past column defence, not to mention as they are fantastic for setting up Chain Pushes.

Break Tackle is not a vital skill for Tomb Guardians if you position correctly, Stand Firm is far more important IMO, but I would recommend grabbing Break Tackle on one if you get any Strength 4 Blitz Ra's as this will make him far more effective in defence (MB, Tackle, Juggs, Strip Ball, Str4, Stand Firm/SS/Dodge is excellent).
Are a few of my more standard setups...
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