Pro on a KO Blitz AND the Catch

[Darkson]

The FAQ is your friend:
"Q: Can I use Pro during my opponent's turn? Can you re-roll Pro?
A: Yes you can. Yes but only in your turn."...

Not that that has anything to do with the question asked.

[Bakunin]

Unfortunately, the skill description only says "once per turn" but I assume this means his own turn.
So, second notion is to say no, you can't use Pro the second time.

[Twelfman]

It's the old rules-as-written and rules-as-intended argument I reckon.

I would argue that the turn hasn't actually started until the ball stops moving. So you get this:

Set up: No ones turn yet.

Kick off event: This happens before Turn 1. It's not a turn until the turn marker is moved on one, which is why you can't use team rerolls.

Ball flies about, bounces, might fall off the pitch etc but until it stays where it is and has stopped its bouncing would I consider it a new turn. Ball stops, turn marker moves on one, begin Turn 1/new turn.

So in this case, here's what my personal ruling would be.

Can you use Pro during a blitz? Absolutely.

Can you use it to catch the ball during a blitz? Yes.

Can you use it (for example failed dodge) during a blitz, then use it again once the blitz is over, but before the opponent's turn begins? No.

While I'm sure people could argue against this, but I'm certain that wasn't the intention.

[dode74]

While I'm sure people could argue against this, but I'm certain that wasn't the intention.

Why the certainty? The rules as written suggest otherwise, so assuming that the authors meant other than what the rules say seems rather presumptuous. It's surely safer to work to the rules as known until you discover otherwise.

[Be4ch]

Kick off event: This happens before Turn 1. It's not a turn until the turn marker is moved on one, which is why you can't use team rerolls.

Just to avoid confusion, the Blitz is described as a 'bonus' turn in the Kick-Off table and it specifically says that team re-rolls may be used during a Blitz.

[Twelfman]

Why the certainty? The rules as written suggest otherwise, so assuming that the authors meant other than what the rules say seems rather presumptuous. It's surely safer to work to the rules as known until you discover otherwise.

I suppose I imagine the rule-writer sitting there and thinking "yes, I'd like a player to be able to use Pro once per turn, including in a blitz." I find it hard to imagine they would also go "Oh, and if they use Pro once during the free turn that blitz provides, and position themselves under the ball, I'd also like them to be able to use it to catch the kicked ball."

It sounds more to me like a loophole that, while not going against the rules, would not be the intention. Similar to the whole "Vampires can bite while they're on the floor" argument. Of course I could be totally wrong, as I'm not the one that wrote the rules, but as I read that the impression I get is what I wrote above. I'm just throwing my opinion in

Kick off event: This happens before Turn 1. It's not a turn until the turn marker is moved on one, which is why you can't use team rerolls.

Just to avoid confusion, the Blitz is described as a 'bonus' turn in the Kick-Off table and it specifically says that team re-rolls may be used during a Blitz.

Totally right, but what about the small moment between a blitz and the beginning of the receiver's turn? The receiver can't use their team rerolls in this grey zone (which is what I meant below!), so can it be said their turn has properly started?

[biereforever]

Hello (this is my first post in this forum)

The use of PRO is simple: you can use PRO once per turn and there are 32 turns

extract of the LRB6 (Page 7)
"Blood Bowl is split into two halves of sixteen turns each (i.e.,
eight turns per coach)"

=> blodbowl is a match made of 32 turns


About the "kick-off" sequence described hereafter

Extract of the LRB6 (Page 18)
"
The Kick-Off table is used to recreate these unforeseen but fairly
common events. After both teams have set up, follow this
sequence in the order below:
(1) Place the ball on the pitch
(2) Scatter ball to determine where the ball is about to land
(3) Roll on the Kick-Off table
(4) Resolve the Kick-Off table result
(5) Bounce/ catch/or touchback the ball
"

From my point of view, you can consider this sequence as a "Kick-off" Turn where team-reroll can't be used (the only exception where team-reroll can be used is during step (4) in case of "blitz" event)
and skills usage (kick-off return, diving catch, catch, pro) is allowed

So if you use PRO during the "Blitz" event (step (4)) => you can't use PRO at step (5) (because it's still the same turn)


To make it easier, just consider that a bloodbowl match is made of:
- your 16 turns
- the 16 opponent's turns
- and X "kick-off" turns

And that you can use PRO once per turn (whatever kind of turn it is).

This is my feeling on this Rule query.

[Regash]

Hello (this is my first post in this forum)

Welcome to the forum!

So if you use PRO during the "Blitz" event (step (4)) => you can't use PRO at step (5) (because it's still the same turn)

And that is where you are wrong. The kick-off is no turn.
The Blitz! event is a bonus turn for you to use before the actual and regular turn starts.
When you are done with all the Blitz!-turn movements, you aczually have to end your bonus turn. This is what sets off the ball handling procedure of that said kick-off.
So it is NOT the same turn anymore as the ball "stays" up in the air while the Blitz!-event is taking place.

The question now is, more or less, if the

(5) Bounce/ catch/or touchback the ball

is a turn by itself, part of a turn or no turn at all.
If it is not a turn, you can't use Pro. In any other case you could.

[dode74]

I suppose I imagine the rule-writer sitting there and thinking "yes, I'd like a player to be able to use Pro once per turn, including in a blitz." I find it hard to imagine they would also go "Oh, and if they use Pro once during the free turn that blitz provides, and position themselves under the ball, I'd also like them to be able to use it to catch the kicked ball."

It sounds more to me like a loophole that, while not going against the rules, would not be the intention. Similar to the whole "Vampires can bite while they're on the floor" argument. Of course I could be totally wrong, as I'm not the one that wrote the rules, but as I read that the impression I get is what I wrote above. I'm just throwing my opinion in

Of course, but that's entirely based on your interpretation of the intent (i.e. what you would do) rather than interpretation of what is written.

[GalakStarscraper]

Reading the text again to make sure I remember correctly ... you can use it both times.

During the bonus turn is a no brainer as that is a normal turn ... a bonus turn ... but basically normal.

Now the ball lands outside of anyone's turn ... it is a no man's land ... that is why a team re-roll cannot be used. The rules on page 18 specially point out that Pro may be used which provides an exception to the fact that Pro says it can only be used during a turn.

So what you have is actually two rules for Pro (the normal rules in the skill) and then a special exception rule on page 18 allowing it to be used to re-roll a failed catch roll of the Kick-off.

Thus ... I would rules that you could use it both times.

[GalakStarscraper]

I suppose I imagine the rule-writer sitting there and thinking "yes, I'd like a player to be able to use Pro once per turn, including in a blitz." I find it hard to imagine they would also go "Oh, and if they use Pro once during the free turn that blitz provides, and position themselves under the ball, I'd also like them to be able to use it to catch the kicked ball."

It sounds more to me like a loophole that, while not going against the rules, would not be the intention. Similar to the whole "Vampires can bite while they're on the floor" argument.

The sad thing is that I did think of most of these things and for the vast majority of them ... just said ... okay I'm fine with that (like the Vampires biting ankles event). Apologies if this destroys your faith in my approach to rule design.

[Twelfman]

Of course, but that's entirely based on your interpretation of the intent (i.e. what you would do) rather than interpretation of what is written.

Which is more important though? The rule interpreted based on its logical intention or the rule as it may be interpreted because it's written vaguely?

Another example is the Really Stupid skill. Technically speaking a player that's failed his Bone-head roll can assist a Really Stupid player, but is that what was intended when the rule was written? You would be right in saying that it is well within the rules, but I would argue that it's probably not the sort it thing that should happen. It just most likely wasn't considered properly when the rule was written.

The problem is when these games get very competitive, such as at tournaments? And these things crop up. Thankfully they don't all that often!!

[Twelfman]

The sad thing is that I did think of most of these things and for the vast majority of them ... just said ... okay I'm fine with that (like the Vampires biting ankles event). Apologies if this destroys your faith in my approach to rule design.

Well, there's the answer I suppose! Consider myself corrected. You know you're wrong when the fella that wrote the rules tells you you're wrong

[dode74]

Which is more important though? The rule interpreted based on its logical intention or the rule as it may be interpreted because it's written vaguely?

You don't know what the "logical" intention was: that's my point. The only knowledge we have regarding intent is what was written. As you can see above, that's now been clarified.

Another example is the Really Stupid skill. Technically speaking a player that's failed his Bone-head roll can assist a Really Stupid player, but is that what was intended when the rule was written? You would be right in saying that it is well within the rules, but I would argue that it's probably not the sort it thing that should happen. It just most likely wasn't considered properly when the rule was written.

You're applying your own interpretation to the rules again. It might "seem logical" to you but it is not what the rules say, and there are known illogicalities in the rules such as the point at which the interception roll comes in the sequence, so a claim of "that's not right because it doesn't seem logical" falls at that hurdle.

The problem is when these games get very competitive, such as at tournaments? And these things crop up. Thankfully they don't all that often!!

It's not a problem because we have written rules.

[babass]

Can you use it to catch the ball during a blitz? Yes.

there is NO ball to be catch during the blitz.
we just have the target square of the ball.
The catch would happen AFTER the blitz turn.