The elf doubles conundrum

[Zombie]

Having a guard on your team doesnt stop u from being elves, avoid alot of iffy hits and dodge dodge dodge.

Ah, another thing I'm probably doing wrong. I usually try to throw a block if I can get an assist if it will allow me to push the player away rather than try to dodge away from him. Dodge has a 1 in 6 chance of failing (or 50% usually :roll: ) which when backed up by a re-roll becomes 1 in 36. Blocking with an assist (without Block) has a 1 in 9 chance of resulting in my player down or 1 in 81 when back up by a re-roll... so getting an assist and blocking tends to result in less of my players falling over and getting injured.

Martyn

Yes, but then you use up 2 players' action instead of just one. You're also lining up your guard line-elf to be hit next turn. I think you should dodge more and hit less. Either that or start player dwarves.

[martynq]

If you're having a problem getting a second skill for your line-elves, then you're not playing the team right. All they need is 3 TDs and a completion. It's an easy thing to get in 3 games at most. Guard it is.

I have to say I disagree with you Zombie - I don't believe it is that easy to get 3 TDs in 3 games on one particular player, particularly when this player doesn't have more than the average movement. I play in Galak's MBBL and MBBL2... there are plenty of good coaches here and his structure ensures that you always play a team that is doing roughly as well as you are. This means there are very few easy games.

OK, you, Zombie, may well be the best coach in the known universe and can kick the pants of all players in your league, but I'm afraid I'm not that good. I end up feeling lucky if I can score with any player whatsoever - not always the one I most want to get the SPPs for.

Martyn

[Zombie]

I'm really not that good. I always do well in regular season, but for whatever reason i always seem to choke in the playoffs.

However, elves are what i play best, and also what i have most trouble playing against. In my experience, elves can usually choose between 2 or 3 players when it's time to score. Just use the line-elf as a wide receiver, and you'll find the ball going his way more often than not.

[martynq]

Hmmm... thanks for replying Zombie - I suspect you are still considerably better than me.

I usually find I have at most one elf who can score at any given point. Usually this is the guy with NoS and Dodge, provided he is knocked over.

Where do I put a wide receiver? Presumably in a wide zone somewhere? (I don't watch American Football, so have only heard the terms and don't know what they actually mean.)

The trouble with trying to use a lineman is that his MA is only 6, so it will require the drive to last at least 3 turns rather than 2 to score. I find that my drives with elves go along the following lines:

Turn 1: Get potential receivers deep into opponents half, usually putting his defense of balance.

Opponent's Turn 1: He attempts to adjust the balance of his defense, knocks over one receiver and puts TZs on some of the others.

Turn 2: Remove markers from one receiver, pass the ball, and score... or fail.

Opponent's Turn 2 (if I failed above): Finishes adjusting his defense and swarms my receivers and often ball-carrier completely.

Turn 3: Enter shambolic phase where the ball shows no sign of getting anywhere near opponent's enzone.

This illustrate the problem with using slow receivers... by Turn 3, my opponent has managed to adjust for my originally going down one particular wing and has now swarmed my offense.

Martyn

[DoubleSkulls]

Turn 1: Get potential receivers deep into opponents half, usually putting his defense of balance.

Opponent's Turn 1: He attempts to adjust the balance of his defense, knocks over one receiver and puts TZs on some of the others.

Ensure that the ball is either deep or caged! In someways getting the ball into a more vulnerable situation can help as your opponent should not be able to cover all the receivers and pressurize the cage.

Turn 2: Remove markers from one receiver, pass the ball, and score... or fail.

Opponent's Turn 2 (if I failed above): Finishes adjusting his defense and swarms my receivers and often ball-carrier completely.

Or, if the receivers are too well covered, advance the cage upfield and try to make a few receivers available for #3

Turn 3: Enter shambolic phase where the ball shows no sign of getting anywhere near opponent's enzone.

Beacuse you haven't been moving the ball. If you had the opponent cannot normally cover all your receivers and pressurize the cage. If he doesn't pressurize the cage, just keep moving it forward. Eventually you'll either have to pass (as the pressure on the ball carrier is too great) or run it in.

[High & Mighty]

...my MBBL2 team has completed 12 matches and again got 3 doubles (in 15 skill rolls).

In the words of Bill Clinton, I feel your pain. My championship Dark Elves got to a TR of 220 with 25 skill rolls in about 15 games, and of those, just three doubles(but 5 stats so I wasn't crying).

I got a double in my very first game and decided to go with piling on in my quest to be very evil (since I could get guard with the next double...that was 8 games later). I have to say though, while he was loads of fun, he was pretty ineffective. Probably just poor rolling, but he did cause fear and people stayed away from, which was also useful.

Regarding guard, as someone said, it seems like you might be going out of your way too much to use it. IMO, the real strength of guard for elves (or anyone really for that matter) comes from two situations. The first is when you're receiving and you want to get those 2d blocks on the line right away. The second is cage busting/ball blitzing. He can give you that assist and a decent chance at the ball that you just can't get all the time (combined with a leaping ST4 blizter, a real terror ).

For offense, there's a nice strategy that might help you score more often and take care of the guards not getting more SPPs. The guard/s go on the los so your other elves on the line can get 2d blocks right away. Hopefully with some knockdowns you open some lanes into the backfield. You now send a blitzer or two into the backfield as recievers. Since the guard already served his purpose on the line, he also runs into the backfield, as well (And since he was on the los, he has the added benefit of only needing 1 gfi to score).

As elves, space is your friend so every receiver should be spread out and an island unto himself. Make your opponent cover everyone and don't let him double up anywhere. And don't get too close to the sideline (at least 2 squares away) so you have some maneuvering room. So you've now got 3-4 elves in his backfield (I like 4), the elves on the los that originally blocked holding your containment there, the passer back with the ball, leaving you with 4-5 more elves to strategically place to keep him from blitzing cleanly into your backfield or putting them between your receivers and his defenders they ran past making it hard for him to get good coverage on those deep.

If you're playing against human/skaven, he's likely got ST2 in the backfield. Since your blitzers are receiving, use one to blitz a defender down. St2/Ar7 stuns easily and that's all you need if you score the next turn since it puts more pressure on him to cover everyone. The other trick with this set-up that is often overlooked is the opponent will send some defenders back to cover the receivers and send some down toward your passer, running right past the guys on the LOS, seeing them as just protective linemen since they aren't in scoring range. If he does that, then your passer can likely get a quick pass to one of them. Pick your best odds receiver, use a blitz to clear a tz off him, then that mid-range lineelf just makes a HO and you waltz into the endzone with a dodge or GFI.

Moral of the story. Always take MV7 on a lineelf, as they become immediate receivers.

[wesleytj]

actually 3 doubles out of 15 skill rolls is (slightly) better than your odds... there's no pain to be felt.

now, a bad example would be my dark elf team back when it was vanilla 3rd edition...tr 355, and 1 doubles roll total for the whole team. I had 1 line elf with guard...that was it. To be fair, I also had an ST4 blitzer and an AG5 witch elf (so techincally 2 doubles, one being a double 6) but that's still WELL below odds.

However the team still had a win% over .700 so it just goes to show that doubles aren't really necessary (especially for elves)

[Zombie]

The trouble with trying to use a lineman is that his MA is only 6, so it will require the drive to last at least 3 turns rather than 2 to score.

This might explain our difference of opinion. I've played wood elves many times, but never tried dark elves or high elves. It does make it easier when your line-elves have 7MA.

However, you could do like i do with any team i play (especially with my current chaos dwarves, they're so slow), and go for it every chance you get. I hope you have at least 3 rerolls, right? I always start elves with 2 and my first double is always for leader in such an expensive team.

Oh, and if that's not what you're already doing, do all that High & Mighty said. That's how i play my elves.

[martynq]

I've played wood elves many times, but never tried dark elves or high elves.

Try dark elves sometime - they really do seem to be quite hard to coach... though it is probably just me.

However, you could do like i do with any team i play (especially with my current chaos dwarves, they're so slow), and go for it every chance you get.

I basically gave up on going for it except when absolutely necessary - I kept rolling 1s and then injuring my players. (With my undead team, I have had one ghoul die and one seriously injured from going for it, but only had a single death by an opponent blocking them.) It's a case of twenty times bitten...

I hope you have at least 3 rerolls, right? I always start elves with 2 and my first double is always for leader in such an expensive team.

Yep, I started with two blitzers and two re-rolls. With hindsight, I think I should have started with 11 line-elves and 3 re-rolls. I have got a Leader, but he's got no other skills and seems to often end up in the injured box by half-time.

I've also got problems against one particular defensive setup. How do I deal with an opponent who sets up his players in a deep line? I can't spread out potential receivers, since I basically want to put them right next to his line and I can only blitz one of them.

Martyn

[Kri]

I play High Elves and I find it rather easy to do TD´s with the "right" LineElfs. There is a higher chance of failure but the rewards in the long run is worth it.
What you do is that you run forward with 3 Lion W and 2 Line E. You have to do your going for its round 1. He shouldn´t have enough players to block all five and will probably choose to gang-up on your LW.
If he doesn´t, easy score. If he does, score with a LE.

[Zombie]

I basically gave up on going for it except when absolutely necessary - I kept rolling 1s and then injuring my players. (With my undead team, I have had one ghoul die and one seriously injured from going for it, but only had a single death by an opponent blocking them.) It's a case of twenty times bitten...

I almost never go for it unless i have a reroll to back it up. However, when i do have a reroll, i go for it like mad. It basically means that everyone on my team (until i fail one GFI) has 1 or two extra MA compared to what's written on the roster. Helps a lot.

I've also got problems against one particular defensive setup. How do I deal with an opponent who sets up his players in a deep line? I can't spread out potential receivers, since I basically want to put them right next to his line and I can only blitz one of them.

Against that, just make a cage in front of that deep line. Make sure two players in front of the cage (e.g. dark elf blitzers) are in position to score with two GFI. And keep players outside of the cage (preferably in scoring position) for added threat.

If you didn't mean that deep of a defense, then you can get at least 3 catchers spread out behind the line with GFI, and that's what you should do.

[Snew]

I agree with Zombie on the GFI thing. If I have a RR left I GFI like mad. Mad I tell you. Mad.... Grrrr.

[Grumbledook]

I don't a needless gfi nearly always comes up with double1 ;]

Though I will sometimes do 1 die blocks if i have a spare reroll and failing the block won't have much effect on the game as it stands at that point. You can get spp for a pointless block don't get any for needless gfi.

[Zombie]

Hey, i'd make the pointless block even without the reroll! Take more chances, it makes the games more fun and you'll be surprised how it improves your record! Sometimes it's the improbable attempts that make all the difference.

But of course, i'm not talking about totally pointless GFIs. I'm talking about those that improve your position at least slightly.

[Dangerous Dave]

MartynQ

The big benefit that High / Dark Elves have over Woodies is av 8. This means they can take more punishment.

Sure this can make it harder to score quickly but that's the trade off. Whenever I've played Woodies although I won a lot of games with them I was always fighting injury trouble. In fact my last Wood Elf team won its last 5 matches but then I was down to about 6 players..... so I retired them. Yeah I was unlucky with my oppos' injury rolls etc - having 4 deaths in 3 games is tough!

That's why I prefer High or Dark Elves coz you have more resiliance. You can mix it if you want to. In fact my High Elf team (very luckily) has managed to get 3 players with +1 St, 2 with + 1 Ag, 2 with Dauntless plus the normal Elf skills. Although I usually avoid trading blows, you can group them to take out a section of the oppo and play normal Elf dodging tactics elsewhere. That said they are drawing 2-2 in our tournament semi final against CDs and are down to 9 players - with 1 turn left before O/T I need my 2 KO'd players back! (I hate Guard Stand Firm CDs.....) - so even with a line-up like this, it pays to be careful!


Dave