spp`s for pushing out of bounds

Post by **Dave** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:32 am

madhobbit wrote:As Dave repeated: the player just knocked the guy or gal out of bounds, your fans do the real work.

or thing ...

tik · Post by **tik** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:20 am

Like I said in my post, the player is causing the injury by blocking the opposing player into the crowd. Page 39 explicitly states that only blocks can result in casualty SPP's, it does not state that blocks that push players into the crowd are not awarded SPP if a casualty results.
I want to see where the rules say that blocking a player into the crowd does not give SPP.

Post by **Dave** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:52 am

he does not. A player that exerts his tackle zone in a way that my Wood Elf catcher breaks his neck doesn't get the SPP's even though he might have caused the injury.

Only injuries straight from blocks count!

He blocked his opponent into the crowd, end of player thing.. Enter Crowd .. they kill opponent.

You could house rule that a pow / powdodge result gives the choice: crowd or player, or first player then crowd but it will never be more than a house rule (a nice one, but still a HR)

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:24 pm

tik wrote:I want to see where the rules say that blocking a player into the crowd does not give SPP.

Page 11 of the LRB:

A player pushed off the field is beaten up by the crowd and must roll on the Injury Table (see Injuries, opposite). No modifiers apply to this roll.

Page 11 of the LRB:

If the player who is holding the ball is pushed out of bounds, then he is beaten up by the fans, who are more than happy to throw the ball back into play!

Page 36 of the LRB:

Mighty Blow (Strength Skill)
Add +1 to any Armour or Injury rolls (not both) made by a player with this skill.

Page 39 of the LRB:

Casualties (CAS): If a player kills, seriously injures, or badly hurts an opposing player then they earn 2 Star Player points. ... ... ... Casualties inflicted in any other way do not count for Star Player points.

Now let's use court of law logic. It is clear from the page 11 text that the crowd is doing the injury not the player. If more evidence of this is needed, use page 36. If the player was making the injury roll, he'd be allowed to use his modifiers like Mighty Blow ... but he cannot ... why ... because he's not rolling for injury the crowd is.

So because of pages 11 and 36, its clear that the crowd has rolled for the injury. Ergo when looking at page 39, we can clearly state that the player did not kill, seriously injury, or badly hurt the opposing player. YES, he AIDED in the injury, but did not CAUSE the injury. Aiding a murder in the states can get you convicted ... in Blood Bowl, you don't get any points for something not done with your own hands.

Those before me made the case very well. This issue is not vague, and to be honest its not even a Hot List concern. If you want to house rule that crowd injuries give SPPs ... that's all good more power too you ... can I play Norse please in your league? But just know that its a house rule, not an official one.

Galak

Bludbowler · Post by **Bludbowler** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:55 pm

The simple sollution is to add an Armor Roll when a player pushes an opponent out of bounds. If the opponent fails the Armor Roll, then the player gets 2 SPP for causing the injury. If the opponent survives the Armor Roll, then the crowd causes the injury.

Your Welcome,

Bludbowler.

mikeyc222 · Post by **mikeyc222** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:18 pm

Bludbowler wrote:The simple sollution is to add an Armor Roll when a player pushes an opponent out of bounds. If the opponent fails the Armor Roll, then the player gets 2 SPP for causing the injury. If the opponent survives the Armor Roll, then the crowd causes the injury.

that's funny because it sure seems to the majority of us that the simple solution is to follow the rules and not get 2SPPs. if ya want those two points that bad then give your players piling on.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:43 pm

Pushing somone out of bounds guarentees they are off the pitch, i think if you want the spp that badly you shouldn't push them off the pitch

makes it more of a tactical decision then, which is good

also that rule kinda sucks if you just rolled a push and got them into the crowd, having the player off the pitch is reward enough

if you want to use that house rule and i know a few people do then fine go ahead but i like it as it is

Valen · Post by **Valen** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:53 pm

We house ruled it in our league.

If you knock someone into the crowd with a starburst then you can roll for the artmour and injury, and then roll for the crowd injury. If the armour and first injury roll is a casualty you get the SPP's if the casualty happens on the second injury roll, NO SPP's..

Its been woring so far.

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:06 am

Al I tried to say is that it can be simply misread by people who try and read in their own way.

I know it's not on the BBRC hot list. Still, this question has been asked several times on TBB allready. So the more experienced players read it as it should be, but the newbies have their problems. To simply (if it is simple, I really have no idea how it works) add on page 39 LRB "If a player (not the crowd) .... would clarify a lot to the newbies, and these questions would not be asked any more.

It is not a question of house rules.

I read Galaks post. If you read all the different sections and add them up, you can jump to the conclusion that you don't get SPP's. Point I'm making is that you shouldn't have to.

tik · Post by **tik** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:02 am

thanks for all the ideas. I can see that an argument can be made either way.
One could think of it as being like saying you didn't kill someone when you shot them, it was the bullet that killed em.
The mighty blow skill description seems to provide the best evidence that crowd caused injuries are not related to the player. Thanks for pointing this out. Still though, it is not irrefutably spelt out.

Post by **Dave** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:19 am

actually it's not. the guy is killed with the gun that you gave to someone else.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:03 pm

That all hinges on whether you view the crowd as the Killer (holding the gun) or the means of death (the bullet).

I tend to see the crowd as another weapon in the arsenal of the BB player, but as to whether there should be SPPs or not. Probably not.

If someone's stupid or desperate enough to stand on the sidelines then it's pretty easy to nudge them off.

Malkorax · Post by **Malkorax** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:54 am

I think they ought to alter the rules to allow injuries from fouls to count for casualties. It is just as hard to injure them as a block, and the consequences are high, especially on the second and subsequent fouls.

Mike_Black · Post by **Mike_Black** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:10 pm

But while counting fouls for SPP you have to remember that you can get many assist while fouling dropping the armorvalue really much and if you have a Dirty Player you may even get +2 on injury, so they get SPPs really fast.
I know that because we played it that way not long ago.
So a lineorc of mine got more casualities than a BOB. That should not be so, i think.We also had a skeleton in the league with quite as many CAS as a mummy....

edited a lots of typos

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:30 pm

malorax there was a huge thread on spp for fouls some months ago, there are loads of very good reasons to do with game balence and play why spp for fouls were removed, you used to get them in 3rd edition and it was a mess because of it

if you want more in depth discussion do a search for the thread