Narrow Tiers and Galaks Wish List

[Chris]

Yes, they would curse that sneaky git!

You could throw in something there to help the underdog.

As the big concern is power teams reinforcing advantages, why not make a bribe useable in defence?

That is if the opponent fields a secret weapon, or more likely fouls you, you can use a bribe to get him sent off on a 2+?

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode,
well maybe you and Mattg weren't talking about the same thing. Or maybe I misunderstood.

If it was simply like mighty blow, except you had to go prone before the roll, then I think it would be a very weak skill.
If on the other hand it was +1 AND +1 I foresee a bit of a problem in those situations where going prone casually isn't a problem anymore.

Either way, I'm back to my simple but boring solution.

Doubleskulls,

It really depends on what other measures are in to help fouling. You've added the +1 for the fouler back in right?

Yup. That's it.
And so far it feels 'just right' in playtest. IMO.

I think I miss the "dedicated fouler" teams used to have.

I can't say I miss the old days when BB turned into 'hunt the DP, ignore the ball'. That was too much.

During a Foul Action a player with this skill is not ejected for rolling doubles on the Armour roll. However the player must pull his punches to do so, so do not roll for injury.

Interesting.
I like the other one too.

2 more ideas:
1. A sneaky git may decide not to roll for injury (hence no doubles possible) - treat as stunned.
2. A sneaky git that fouls without assists will only get sent off on a 1-1 roll. (I've always found it strange that the referee has a hard time spotting the foul when several goons are stomping on the prone player).

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

For clarity, Martin, this was my suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35405&p=624289&hili ... al#p624289
I think the "and/or" is misleading - it should be "or".

As an aside, with your version do you choose to use it after the block roll or after the AV roll?

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode,
it's like any modifier. You use it after the roll it affects. Kind of like DT I suppose.

So, in a nutshell, it's mighty blow. But you have to follow up to be able to use it. And you have to go prone to actually use the modifier. Worthless - if it didn't stack.
My version is less potent than the official one. But you're also less likely to go prone. Perhaps that will appeal to big guys and other slow strong blockers.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi again Ian,
forgot to say:

However that may not be a good thing because of the perceived unsporting behaviour in the coaches for doing so.

I don't think it would be a problem. If you've declared a foul, I think everybody knows you're trying to do some damage.

I came up with another one which just might be interesting:
SG - when this player is sent off, put him in the KO box instead.

It would be sweet for secret weapons. But it would also be nice because you could foul without losing your bench. On the other hand it would be weaker also, because you'd be losing a guy from the pitch, making it harder to foul your way into the numbers advantage for the drive. I think it adds up about right - but if it is too weak, the player could just get placed in reserves (it could be worded so that SWs would still miss a drive).

Cheers
Martin

[DoubleSkulls]

I quite like that KO idea. Working on secret weapons initially got me quite worried, as I think every SW would take it first skill if they could.

For the Goblin SWs I don't think it would be a problem and it actually gives a much better reason for fielding the 'saw and bomb (since they'd get this first skill I imagine). Fanatics need doubles, so give up Block if they take it, even assuming they manage to survive a drive.

Death roller might be a problem, but it needs doubles to get it. If Dwarves with DR receive and go 1-0 up in T8 they've got a 75% chance of getting him back for the 2nd half, which I think would make it very worth while and better than any other double IMO. I'm not sure what proportion of developed Dwarf teams field death rollers at the minute so its difficult to work out how problematic it could be.

If it is a problem then a simple answer is to change it so you only go to the KO bin when caught fouling (not when sent off for being a secret weapon). So the SWs get sent off properly at the end of the drive anyway.

[Chris]

What to represent him sneaking out of the dungeon?

SW weapon wise could still get it and start fouling with them towards end of drive...

There are certainly interesting ideas floating around for fouling. In fact its fair to say you thread has been somewhat de-railed by fouling and killing...

Mayhaps we should have a moderator enforced couple of threads, one for CMBPO and the other for fouling to stop them invading so many threads? Any post gets authomatically moved to one or the other!

However, since we are chatting about this here...

Making sneaky git sneaky is definatively an improvement.

In general I remain of the opinion that being on the floor in blood bowl should be more dangerous than standing up. But that should be balanced by making it relatively easy to lose players indulging in such activities.

There are a few oddities as well. I can stab a player to my hearts content, however if I am next to a downed player I can't knife him? Likewise I hit a guy standing up and have my kill stack, he is actually harder to hurt once he goes down...

On the kill stack incidentally after hearing Ian explain it the most simply option would seem to be simply to not have it stack. So my CMBPO player hits a player. I use claws to get throught e armour then roll injury plus mighty blow. If its not good enough I pile on. Or other combinations thereof. Still nasty, still better but not the potentially devestating effect it currently has. And to all those who think its not a problem, a slightly above average series of rolls can wipe out your touchline on turn 0 against a 'killer' line up. You also encounter teams who basically play as a massive gamble, going for the stack before getting block on the basis that if it works you are crippled and they can then consider trying to win.

Note I am all for more death, especially of developed players (which is why I like the idea of adding player level to injury rolls), but at a constant rate not a quarter of the team dying every 3rd match.

[dode74]

I really like that SG idea - very nice indeed.

Reference skills not stacking, the issue is that it has a different effect on different AVs. This means that some will take a relative buff compared to others - specifically, AV7 will be worse off than AVs 8 and above. Given that the aim of claw was to help make attrition more equal I think that's going against that point.

The problem with having a CPOMB thread and a fouling thread and a whatever thread is that all the issues interlock. People come up with all their ideas (many of which are great) and they end up addressing the same issues (CPOMB and fouling being two of them). The great thing that Martin has done is to explain the aim of his changes rather than simply proposing them. That way we can discuss the changes with respect to an aim he has defined, rather than each of our own disparate desires for the game.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
I'm glad you like it - even if it is a pretty small audience
Thing is, the current alternative SG (assist in a TZ) doesn't appear to be good enough to get taken by the playtesters.

Ian, I don't think there are really that many (any?) developed dwarf teams who bother with the roller. It could be kind of cool to see one every now and then. For the bombardier it's a must - considering no other skill really improves this guy. On the chainsaw I think I'd still go dodge first - these guys are sitting ducks.

Perhaps it would be best to say that 'a player sent off at the end of a drive (i.e. a Secret Weapon) does not get to roll for KO recovery at the end of that same drive'. Still, as Chris said, some coaches will probably circumvent that by going on a late-drive fouling spree. I'm just not sure that's an actual issue. I also see the combo with Bloodweiser Babes. Again, not sure it's an issue - but alternatively the skill could just be worded as a 4+ to return from being sent-off.

I imagine this ability would be added to the original one (not sent off on unbroken armour).

Cheers
Martin

[DoubleSkulls]

I think the "KO'd instead" rule is worth play testing. I think its just one of those things that I would rather exclude secret weapons altogether that write it into the rules that way without play testing.

[DoubleSkulls]

Reference skills not stacking, the issue is that it has a different effect on different AVs. This means that some will take a relative buff compared to others - specifically, AV7 will be worse off than AVs 8 and above. Given that the aim of claw was to help make attrition more equal I think that's going against that point.

The Claw/MB combo on its own is very good already. At the World Cup pretty much every Norse team took a Snow Troll with Mighty Blow instead of Block. I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than MB on a Necromantic werewolf or Chaos Dwarf on doubles for a while. That pretty much shows the combo is considered one of the best available.

If you weaken MB/PO then relatively you give an advantage to the teams with Claw access. So Orcs/Dwarves may well end up being even worse off against Chaos (for example) than they are today.

By making Claw/MB not stack on AV (you still get +1 to injury) we'd reduce the AV breaks by 1/6, meaning about 1/36 less casualties for the combo. That combo would still do a casualty every 9 knockdowns (nearly 3 times as good as an unskilled player). It helps reduce the effectiveness of the CLPOMB since the MB would now only help when you roll a 7 or 9 on the injury or play stunties.

[dode74]

Happy to discuss it with you on another thread or by PM, Ian. Shall we not take over Martin's thread though?

[voyagers_uk]

I really like the SG suggestion Martin, I have struggled to think of reasons to take it for a while, teh current version just doesn't appeal.

good thinking!

[the.tok]

The SG idea is indeed both interesting and balanced at first glance. Plus I like the idea of the little goblin that trained escaping from the dungeon, and that the referee keeps banning over and over

On the other hand, the stack with babes doesn't make sense at all... don't think it would be overpowered, but just saying

[Glamdryn]

I think I like the 4+ chance of ignoring an ejection. It fits well with the Sneaky part and I would definitely start taking this skill. Simple, useful, and imo not too powerful. Great for SW guys.

Combined with the +1 to armor when fouling, I think it might actually be dangerous to fall on the ground again.