3 Slann development questions

[Greyhound]

I worry about putting Block and dodge on ball carriers. Both skills are all around useful, but neither of them are going to make your opponent have to rethink their strategic approach.

They actually do, if I see a non block-dodge ball carrier I'll go for a 1-die block, even if it had to be done by non -wrestle/tackle, whereas if I see a blodger, and I can't get the wrestle/Tackle guy in place, I will prepare for a 2-dice block next turn, rather than risk it now.

[nick_nameless]

I worry about putting Block and dodge on ball carriers. Both skills are all around useful, but neither of them are going to make your opponent have to rethink their strategic approach.

They actually do, if I see a non block-dodge ball carrier I'll go for a 1-die block, even if it had to be done by non -wrestle/tackle, whereas if I see a blodger, and I can't get the wrestle/Tackle guy in place, I will prepare for a 2-dice block next turn, rather than risk it now.

Maybe I should put it differently: People are used to dealing with opposing players that have block and dodge.

Sure, a player having or not having those skills affects people's thinking, but it's the kind of thinking they are used to. Other skills that opposing coaches don't see often make them reevaluate strategy on unfamiliar terms.

[nick_nameless]

EDIT: I am just not sure what role dodge plays in what I want my Slann Blitzers to do. That's not to say it's not "useful", but it doesn't add function to what I am trying to accomplish. And please take my comment in context. I was specifically referencing using the blitzers as safeties, as bolded above.

A traditional safety build would indeed include the following:

Block, Dodge, Sidestep, Diving tackle players (force a -2 dodge). The blitzers start with DT, but need all three - at Block&Dodge they are already pretty annoying to shake, but SS or SF is really needed to force a POW on the defender or the use of grab or tackle without using two of these players for one opponent.

OR

Wrestle/Block + Tackle, Frenzy, or Strip ball (get the ball / player down) + dodge if possible (to get the blitzer in position).

I dont honestly understand how you can stop your opponents without marking them with your concept of "non-contact safeties". I suspect you try to play slann too uniquely, or your league is just not used to them. I got a 100% winrate in my TT-league with my vampires this season too, needless to say my fumbbl-vamps only managed slightly above 50%.

I use my blitzers almost exclusively in free space or to mark weak (st2) catchers. I mark other players with my linefrogs. I try to create a net where possible, and honestly most of the time I don't want my frogs right on the opponents. They go squish way too easily. I like to let the opponent try to mark me and then leap my AG4 players in to get at the ball carrier.

it's not a universally effective strategy. Tough to do against high STR ballcarriers. Not sure how I would deal with a vampire.

I just know that putting 2 DT/T players into lanes behind the main lines of battle keeps my opponent from moving the ball well. I hope to add to that by putting shadowing on my 2 catchers with mv8

I really don't play my Slann in a "traditional" way. I like them being unconventional. Finesse teams in a league have to be built to not get killed by the bashy teams, and bashy teams have to be built to not let finesse teams run around them. I feel like if I stay out of those modes and worry about how I can defend finesse teams (using a net) and bash teams (jumping in and breaking the cage), then that makes me hard to deal with.

Also, back to Passblock: What's stopping you from using your Blitzer's DT ability when your opponent tries to get a receiver into your backfield, and then if you fail to stop them then using jump-up to get up for free and get into the passing lane for a 5+ chance at an INT or to put a tacklezone on the catcher...or to just mark him again in your backfield so that you can use the blitzer to throw a block on your turn? Underrated skill for the slann blitzers.

EDIT: Suggestion - induce Lottabottol next time you have a big TV gap against a finesse team and try some of the tactics. He's built for it, and really he's where I got the idea from.

[Ullis]

Also, back to Passblock: What's stopping you from using your Blitzer's DT ability when your opponent tries to get a receiver into your backfield, and then if you fail to stop them then using jump-up to get up for free and get into the passing lane for a 5+ chance at an INT or to put a tacklezone on the catcher...or to just mark him again in your backfield so that you can use the blitzer to throw a block on your turn? Underrated skill for the slann blitzers.

You can only stand up and hence use Jump Up when starting an action. Using Pass Block is not an action and hence you cannot use Jump Up. See page 11 and 65 of the CRP.

[nick_nameless]

Also, back to Passblock: What's stopping you from using your Blitzer's DT ability when your opponent tries to get a receiver into your backfield, and then if you fail to stop them then using jump-up to get up for free and get into the passing lane for a 5+ chance at an INT or to put a tacklezone on the catcher...or to just mark him again in your backfield so that you can use the blitzer to throw a block on your turn? Underrated skill for the slann blitzers.

You can only stand up and hence use Jump Up when starting an action. Using Pass Block is not an action and hence you cannot use Jump Up. See page 11 and 65 of the CRP.

Perhaps I am reading too far into the rules, so to speak, but I read(past tense) this as:

Pass Block allows a player to move up to 3 squares.
Moving is an action.
Jump up would apply.

Is this FAQ'd somewhere?

I see where you are coming from and am not saying I'm right, but I think my interpretation of the verbage is within the realm of reasonable interpretation of the rules

Then again the argument could be made that the Action mechanic only applies on your turn, and anything done on the opposing players turn counts as a Reaction (my addition to the verbage).

If that's the case, then it makes the picture as I painted it much less rosy.

[nick_nameless]

Also, back to Passblock: What's stopping you from using your Blitzer's DT ability when your opponent tries to get a receiver into your backfield, and then if you fail to stop them then using jump-up to get up for free and get into the passing lane for a 5+ chance at an INT or to put a tacklezone on the catcher...or to just mark him again in your backfield so that you can use the blitzer to throw a block on your turn? Underrated skill for the slann blitzers.

You can only stand up and hence use Jump Up when starting an action. Using Pass Block is not an action and hence you cannot use Jump Up. See page 11 and 65 of the CRP.

Perhaps I am reading too far into the rules, so to speak, but I read(past tense) this as:

Pass Block allows a player to move up to 3 squares.
Moving is an action.
Jump up would apply.

Is this FAQ'd somewhere?

I see where you are coming from and am not saying I'm right, but I think my interpretation of the verbage is within the realm of reasonable interpretation of the rules

Then again the argument could be made that the Action mechanic only applies on your turn, and anything done on the opposing players turn counts as a Reaction (my addition to the verbage).

If that's the case, then it makes the picture as I painted it much less rosy.

I found that answer.

Ah well. Seemed like a good idea...

[Carnis]

Building a net where the 2nd man in the line has DT is great, but it's comparing two different things. Building 2 lane wide defence setups requires no skills, DT is a nice help, block, dodge not so much (except for dodge if you need to reposition). However, it is not rare at all, that after a while you can get into the TZ of a ballcarrier (after for instance, blitzing a cagecorner out).

My build was mainly aimed at that, ie. keeping the BC in place with the use of DT to force a difficult dodge or get a block next turn.. A very popular & useful strategy against most teams infact. The comparison you offered were thus two different, but unrelated things, I feel.

[nick_nameless]

Building a net where the 2nd man in the line has DT is great, but it's comparing two different things. Building 2 lane wide defence setups requires no skills, DT is a nice help, block, dodge not so much (except for dodge if you need to reposition). However, it is not rare at all, that after a while you can get into the TZ of a ballcarrier (after for instance, blitzing a cagecorner out).

My build was mainly aimed at that, ie. keeping the BC in place with the use of DT to force a difficult dodge or get a block next turn.. A very popular & useful strategy against most teams infact. The comparison you offered were thus two different, but unrelated things, I feel.

I hear you. I was talking more about using the DT player as a second line of defense, mainly because if I am using a layered defense with my Linefrogs that have block towards the front and the Blitzers in the back making the dodge past the LFs tougher by adding tacklezones, and then creating a net of DT tacklezones. It makes moving through that region tougher. I am hoping that when I can get shadow on a MV8 catcher that this will add another element. Tackle just helps either way.

vs cages, I am leaping in and blitzing with an AG4 LF, and hopefully with an assist from a guarding catcher. I use LFs to mark the outside opposite where the guarder is.

I just try to play back a little defensively and force my opponent to figure out how to move through me with limited chance to hit me. The last time I played that game, the Norse player I was playing begged for mercy after 6 turns in the first half (and 3 Slann TDs, one on offense and 2 on forced turnovers). It wasn't a league game, so we just moved on to another, different match. It's not a perfect strategy for me at this point because I have only been coaching the Slann for a few months, but it's working pretty well so far

[Smeborg]

Next question: What should I give a Blitzer (first skill) on a 6,4? I am inclined to ignore the stat increase, and to take a skill (because the Blitzers start with a huge skill deficit).

I will probably go with a provisional final roster of 3 Blitzers, 4 Catchers, 7 Linefrogs (provisional because if a Lino dies, I will consider hiring a 4th Blitzer). The team is surviving so far, thanks to my following Galak's advice to start with an Apoth (I also like to do this with other squishy teams). I like to have 14 players on such teams.

I like the Blitzers, I would say they are better than they are cracked up to be. They have a strong indirect influence on the game. The Catchers are OK, I know very well what they can do as an opponent. They have a pronounced tendency to go squish on a starting team.

So far the team seems a bit hit or miss. Things either go spectacularly well, or spectacularly badly. In the first 4 games I got a fine win over Orcs, lost badly to other Orcs, lost badly to HEs, won easily against WEs. So no pattern. It is too early to tell if this is how the Slann behave, or whether it is just early game syndrome. How well you are doing with them seems to be in exact inverse proportion to the number of leaps and dodges you have to make.

All the best.

[MeatLoafX]

Unless you are going for a gimmick like shadowing, I would ignore the +MV. I did that on my team simply because the blitzers are difficult to skill up initially and you want something, like block, to protect your investment.

If you're leaping left and right, you're going to have a rough time. Leaping is always something I don't do unless I absolutely must. It's a fantastic skill, and vital to the team for both strategic and theme reasons - but if you're doing it 2-3 times every turn, you're in trouble.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, MeatLoafX, I agree, and have taken a normal skill on the Blitzer in question (Wrestle).

I have 13 players now (2 Blitzers, 4 Catchers, 7 Linefrogs). They are starting to skill up. I am planning to buy my 4rd and 5th Re-rolls next, before deciding on a 14th player. I am inclining towards a Krox (to be used passively and to give a bit of beef to the side). I am also inclining to Wrestle/Dodge as the first 2 skills on the Blitzers (for protection and reliable mobility).

[MeatLoafX]

I've taken a different route with my team, but I can understand your choices. Buy the RRs ASAP - I'm at 5 and I'm having a great season - but it was rough with even 4.

I'm at 14 now, but I stick at 13 (had to buy a linefrog so I wasn't short players the next game). The Krox has been so-so for me. I like having him sitting on the line or, if I'm playing a fast team, off of the line to move into position with his Prehensile tail. He's still at 0 SPPs, though, after about 5 games. I just don't throw many blocks with him.

[Smeborg]

MeatLoafX - I don't think there's an easy choice for the Slann roster. By analogy with other expensive teams (e.g. DEs) they will be too expensive if they take either 4 Blitzers or a Krox and 2 Blitzers, and still take 14 players and 5 re-rolls. They also need some AC/CL (2 of each?) which pushes the TV up further.

Since it will take a few games to buy 2 more RRs, I have time to decide on the Krox. I hear you loud and clear that you find the Krox of marginal value (you are not alone in this view). Maybe a 14 player roster of 2 Blitzers, 4 Catchers and 8 Linefrogs is a realistic possibility. At the moment, I don't feel that 13 players is enough.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... let's see.
14x guy: 840k
4x Catcher: 80k
2x Blitzer: 100k
5x TRR: 250k
1x Apoth: 50k
Sub: 1320k

That's not awful. Certainly not Dark Elf territory. Pressure/mobility teams have a high Expected Meaningful Drives value, so you may want to hire AC/CLs on your way up (just one each). This is especially true if you're playing in an established league, where you're the typical FF underdog: fire them when you find you usually have FAME, if you have your fifth TRR by then.

[Smeborg]

I feel I am struggling to get a good handle on this team in practical play (after 6 games). Perhaps this will come with time. If I take a step backwards from the detail, the point of difference that I observe about the Slann is that they rely on stringing together a number of D6 agility rolls in order to succeed well at anything, and that few, if any, re-rolls are available from skills for these manoeuvres. Examples are: on defense, sacking the ball carrier in a cage and then leaping in, picking up the ball, dodging out and handing-off or passing the ball; on offense, moving the ball in general (pick-up, pass, catch). Some re-rolls skills (or equivalent) will be acquired by development, but the Slann will always be lower on such skills than other AG teams, who tend to start with them. The problem is compounded by the fact that a fair proportion of the D6 rolls that you have to make are at worse odds than 2+ (in contrast to Elven teams).

Practical example: a game last night began with the following non-block dice rolls for the Slann: 221223115226121. Since this run was combined with 3 double skulls, there was often no re-roll available for the AG roll. Result: 0-2 down after 6 turns (my receive). (The rest of the game was close thanks to a better run of D6 rolls, my opponent edged it 2-3 on turn 15.) My feeling at the table was that the Slann were coping worse with "bad luck" (failure) than most other teams would.

Are the Slann really as "shit or bust" as this? I feel they ought not to be, but the only remedies I can think of are (a) to push the style of play even further towards rolling almost no AG dice, and (b) to be patient and wait for skills. Neither solution seems entirely satisfactory.

Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.