Elves versus bashy teams

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:48 pm

OK, current team is:

1.Blitzer: Block,NoS,Dodge
2.Blitzer: Block,Leap,Dodge
3.Blitzer: Block,Dodge
4.Blitzer: Block,Dodge
5.Kicker: 6/3/5/8,Kick,(AG+1)
6.Lineman: Dodge/Block
7.Lineman: Leader
8.Lineman: Block
9.Lineman: Block/Dodge
10.Lineman: Guard
11.Lineman: Block
12.Thrower: Pass,AG+1
13.Witch Elf: usual stuff, plus Block,MB
3 RRs
13 FF
1 apoc

With hindsight, I think giving the blitzer #2 Leap was a poor choice - he's failed the roll so often that I've sort of given up on using it. I need to hope he rolls an AG increase to make better use of it. I also think that Leader was a poor choice and I should have invested in more RRs... but keeping players alive (despite all the dodging away I've been doing) has proved difficult.

The roster to just before the last game is at http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBL/Season3/ ... ration.htm

Martyn

Post by **Dave** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:39 pm

why dodge on de leaper ?? Strip ball would have made him a billiant cage breaker.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:46 pm

Dave wrote:why dodge on de leaper ?? Strip ball would have made him a billiant cage breaker.

To keep him alive and get him out of the cage after leaping in... and to save on re-rolls when moving him. I'm intending to give him Strip Ball next (probably followed by Pro to help with the Leap rolls).

Martyn

Post by **Dave** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:58 pm

I see.

I haven't played Delfs myself but do play Helfs.. In these teams you allways need (IMHO) a player / some players that are able to loosen the ball. Strip ball and / or Pro / tackle can be a very great help with that.

My Helfs ain't got a blitzer yet, (started with 3 Lion Warriors) and have serious trouble defending. Noone can take the ball away from a ball carrier.

I guess that's why I love wardancers (proverbial that is. I'm married to a dwarf

)

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:24 pm

I think I'd agree with Dave. A lack of Strip Ball or Tackle means you are going to struggle against power teams because you have to make the most of your opportunties to knock the ball loose.

There aren't that many teams without any dodgers (ghouls, goblins) and those players that do have it tend to be the key scorers.

Generally you have spent doubles on Leader, NoS & MB. IMO they should all have gone on Dauntless (the WE for sure) and/or Guard. That would help you even things up a lot.

Are you kicking deep? This means very often that the ball is still reasonably deep at the beginning of your turn and you can flood the back field with Elves to interfere with any cage formation. If it doesn't work, well it doesn't really matter that much as you can try again next time. If it does work you'll turn him over and probably win.

One other thing - you said you'd only leave an Elf with block next to a line rat with block (for example). Well this isn't necessary. If the player blocking you doesn't have block it doesn't really matter whether you do or not. If he takes the both down its a turnover.

Also, in future, you will find that skills like Side step, diving tackle and shadowing are very useful against strength teams as if you can get next to the ball carrier you can put them in all sorts of trouble.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:40 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Generally you have spent doubles on Leader, NoS & MB. IMO they should all have gone on Dauntless (the WE for sure) and/or Guard. That would help you even things up a lot.

I think you are possibly right here to some extent. The Leader was a wrong choice... as I commented above... I should have given this guy Guard. I don't actually like giving Dauntless to the witch elf though, since it might cause problems with Frenzy (having to roll the Dauntless roll twice with a pushback allows for plenty of potential problems). I'd much rather give Dauntless to Blitzers and to line-elves who already have Block.

I gave the Blitzer NoS since I was (and still am) having trouble scoring. The trouble is that he is usually always knocked over by my opponent and then any other potential scorers are then double marked. The trouble is that I usually only get one other scorer through, since I have needed to use plenty of people to get enough assists to create the whole in the defense in the first place.

Also, in future, you will find that skills like Side step, diving tackle and shadowing are very useful against strength teams as if you can get next to the ball carrier you can put them in all sorts of trouble.

Yep, I know how I'd like to develop a blitzer sometime (see sig!).

Martyn

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:54 pm

martynq wrote:I don't actually like giving Dauntless to the witch elf though, since it might cause problems with Frenzy

Think how good troll slayers are at getting rid of BGs

martynq wrote:I was (and still am) having trouble scoring.

Maybe this is the real cause of your problems? If you are getting turned over then you are really going to struggle against strength teams who ought to be looking for the 2-1 win.

I normally aim for a 3 turn score. Receivers who rush downfield on turn 1 are really a diversion. If they are all doubled marked you've got plenty of spare players. So some bloke on the LOS can take the handoff/pass & run forward and then get screened by his colleagues. At the end of the day if its not on, you can always sit deep and wait for another opportunity.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:36 am

ianwilliams wrote:Think how good troll slayers are at getting rid of BGs

Dunno... how good are troll slayers at this? I've never coached a dwarf side nor consistently had a BG on my side, so never really witnessed it. The witch elf having AV7 seems to be a problem in addition - if she blocks a big guy and only gets pushbacks then she has to follow up and will surely get splattered next turn. Furthermore a troll slayer has Thick Skull so can cope ever better with ending up next to a BG at the end of his turn.

martynq wrote:I was (and still am) having trouble scoring.
Maybe this is the real cause of your problems?

This is definitely the source of my problems - I didn't point it out originally in my post, but did so later on. I'm having real trouble on offence... defence doesn't seem to be too bad.

I normally aim for a 3 turn score. Receivers who rush downfield on turn 1 are really a diversion. If they are all doubled marked you've got plenty of spare players. So some bloke on the LOS can take the handoff/pass & run forward and then get screened by his colleagues. At the end of the day if its not on, you can always sit deep and wait for another opportunity.

Hmmm, I'm not convinced that I can expect to have a huge number of players over if he's double marked my receivers. Given I will have needed to use lots of players to get assists, I will have struggled to get more than two receivers through. He can knock over one and then double-mark the other. Only needs three players to do that, so I only outnumber his remaining players by 1, while he probably has four players with ST4 and a big guy, so I will struggle to easily create a hole needing more players to create enough assists.

I am listening, but it really doesn't seem to be as easy as people claim it is.

Martyn

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:35 am

Sounds to me like your just depressed about DE's. I played a game with mine last night and won 5-1. Not against Orcs, admittedly, but it was still a pick up on getting beaten by Orcs to the Championship and our Conference title.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:55 am

martynq wrote:Hmmm, I'm not convinced that I can expect to have a huge number of players over if he's double marked my receivers. Given I will have needed to use lots of players to get assists, I will have struggled to get more than two receivers through. He can knock over one and then double-mark the other. Only needs three players to do that, so I only outnumber his remaining players by 1, while he probably has four players with ST4 and a big guy, so I will struggle to easily create a hole needing more players to create enough assists.

You must get 3 receivers downfield. Then double marking becomes much for difficult because he's using at least 4 players to mark the 2 he didn't blitz, plus probably another 1 on the one who was blitzed. That should give you a 2 man advantage plus your knockdowns on the LOS should help too.

Maybe you need to risk the 1 die blocks to make the whole in the line - and don't automatically try to go down the flank - often there are holes in the centre you can exploit with just a push.

With the Witch Elf - remember you've got 2 chances to put them down so that's ~80% of knocking them over from two 2 dice blocks (assuming they have block but not dodge).

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:19 pm

I would also get another thrower and give him dump off then surehands. His role is solely to hand off the ball to your main throwe when the blitz comes buying you another turn.

Cooper · Post by **Cooper** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:24 pm

Dave wrote: It's not as if you want each team to be exactly the same. Delfs ain't got a BG, but have AG4 and AV8 to boot.

If you give eacht race a BG, make them have the same stats / skills as well, waay more balanced, but waaaaay more boring as well

Yeah, nobody likes games like chess/checkers/go/etc/etc

W

Post by **Dave** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:35 pm

don't like checkers actually, but that's not really the purpose of BB is it

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:03 pm

Interesting thread. My MBBL Helfs are as old as Martyn's MBBL Delfs, they're both at 7-7 and my TR is 176 to Martyn's 184, so there's nothing in it. Unfortunately I haven't kept full records, but 3 of my 7 defeats (that immediately spring to mind) were against Martyn's (aforementioned) Delfs, a Skaven team and a narrow loss in a great game against Chet's Zons. Dunno what our comparative records are against what you might term 'bashy teams', but it'd be interesting to find out.
At Rendez-vous I had 2 nightmare games with Helfs, one against Dwarves where I finished with 1 player left on the field, and one against Orcs where I had the field cleared. I think elves need development and they'll be fine. An Elf team in a bashy league has much more of an uphill struggle to get to to the point where they become really effective. I expect that in a few games we'll both kick on and improve that 50% record. (And the very fact that we're both at evens after 14 games each in a reasonably bash happy league tells me there's not too much wrong, n'est-ce pas?). The fun starts here. Keep the faith.

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:06 pm

I forsee future problems with my DE team. Next season coming up against Undead, Orc, Lizards and Chaos. Only breather is another Human team.