Undead advice wanted! [NTBB league]

[plasmoid]

Hi Shteve0, Spubbbba and Mattgslater,
that is my problem in a nutshell.

I like seeing grab in action. But just how good is it. Is the nerf big enough. Is it even a nerf. Is the hard nerf of cutting grab too harsh?
A grabless mummy would probably develop pretty blandly, which is also kind of sad.

In the end, I'll have to err on the side of caution.
A lot of people have said that G-mummies look insane.
But in playtest so far only Shteve0 has found them to be not nerfed at all.

Hard one.
Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

But again, that is with chosen MVP’s which is a huge difference.

I’m sure someone who is more of a maths wiz than me has the difference in odds between getting a cas vs AV8 with and without MB. I make it 2.57% without MB, though that doesn’t factor in both downs.

If you assume a generous 10 blocks a game (grab helping with this) then you still need 4 games on average to get 1 cas.

A good comparison would be with Khemri, how long does it take to skill up a guardian now they have lost MB?

[mattgslater]

How good is it? In a vacuum, that's hard to tell. It's not a power skill, because it doesn't do one of those things that the game is keyed around. It's not a vanity skill (Spub is straight-up wrong here) because it gets use several times a match, combos with usable skills, and changes the way the game is played. It's something in between.

Roughly speaking, I'd put it on the same level as Strip Ball, though it's different in application, in that Strip comes early and loses effectiveness as most teams end up with Sure Hands, while Grab comes late and improves with team development. But it's more powerful than Strip Ball, too. Especially against an opponent who doesn't know to fear two-player combos or to build against Grab, clever Grabbing can ruin any cage pretty quickly. It's also fun, because it will set up all sorts of crazy games that are just not open to teams that don't have Grab.

Grab is WAY better than Catch, Nerves of Steel, or Safe Throw. It's not a power skill, but it's very much worth a late selection on the right guy.

1) You WILL use Grab every match, assuming your Grabber doesn't get hurt. Rare is the match where you don't use it meaningfully* twice. Catch may approach that, but even then Catch only actually functions 2/9 or 5/36 of the time (at most 1/4 with penalties) and sometimes saves a RR rather than preventing failure, while Grab tends to have 7/27, 1/3, 5/9, 19/27, 8/9 or 26/27 chance of success (depending on whether you want to Grab on a push, would Grab on a push but want to pow, or want to Grab on a push or pow, and on whether you're hitting 2d or 3d... 1d ST4+ blocks aren't very common).
2) You will probably use it several times, whether to retain zones, prevent dodges, or set up chainpushes.
3) Grab completely rewrites your offense, and dramatically for the better.
4) Grab negates Side Step. Sometimes you really need to negate Side Step....
5) Grab combos with a lot of good skills, including POMB, Guard, and SS/SF.
6) Grab combos with marginal skills that are better on the type of player who takes Grab, like Tentacles and Multiple Block.
7) Grab actually does a fair amount of damage: it makes your fouls better, it lets you POMB into Fend, it lets you set up blocks for your killers and still keep them protected, and most fun of all it sets up all kinds of crazy surf action (especially if you keep a Frenzy guy near your Grabber).

* By that, I mean throw a block when you'd rather push in a way that requires Grab, for some meaningful reason.

[mattgslater]

Trading MB down to a decent B-skill is a nerf, yes. Giving them G access is a buff, yes. In an environment with chosen MVP, losing MB hurts a lot less. It's really easy to get Block/Guard for both, and then after that you can just let them build slowly but surely, dropping an MVP on them when you don't have anybody you really need to improve. If you establish a policy of never MVP'ing S/Zs who already have either Block or DP, or Ghouls regardless, you'll be able to advance your Mummies steadily, especially after 31 SPP, where they have ST5/Block/MB, in addition to Guard and Grab.

Your idea is fine, Martin. It does mostly what you want.

1) Immediately, it's a minor nerf.
2) Quickly, it evens out, as Grab gets better once you have your Frenzy Wight, and Block/Guard is a better early track than Guard/whatever of the leftover S skills you decide is the least suboptimal.
3) Eventually, it's a significant buff, as most Star Mummies would have both skills under either design (Grab is a good #3-4 for standard Mummies, and MB is a good #3 for yours), but yours has better skill access.

[Shteve0]

Hey all!

Been a while since I posted here, but having raced ahead in games her in the NZCL, I needed to take a breather and allow others to catch up. This week I tried (and failed) to arrange a game against one of the two opponents I was still yet to face who haven't already left the league - pro elves and dark elves - but ended up back at square one, facing the humans I came up against in week 1.

Brian's humans aren't a team I faced lightly - they're a solid setup, with four blitzers (one guard, one guard/strip ball), an ogre, a pair of throwers and five linemen, one with block. Our first game of the season was a mixed bag for his development prospects, with one of his throwers suffering a -AG and his Ogre rolling a double having skilled first game (taking block, and prohibiting a reset). That said, he's been out of the game for a while, and he's re-learning some of the game's complexities, which showed in our first game (I surfed three players in three turns - we all have to learn somehow!).

Brian won the fame and the toss and, somewhat to my surprise, elected to kick, setting up with his block Ogre centrally within a lineman huddle and a lineman and a guard blitzer either flank on the LoS. I set up very imbalanced offense, with my two block (one MB) mummies over on the right flank LoS, an MB wight supporting the section and three ghouls deep for maneuverability in an attempt to take control of the ball quickly (side note: I seem to favour three ghouls every set up. am I doing the right thing?). The kick off result came up Perfect Defense, and a reshuffle left me vulnerable but not beaten - I still had a hit on the only guard player on the flank, despite my block but non-MB mummy being tied up by an Ogre just to the inside of the right flank.

So my MB mummy went on a bit of a rampage, taking out two players to KO in the first 2 or 3 turns, and I was able to push up for a slow and sometimes painful 7 turn score. I took a CAS and a KO on the way, regening the former, but inflicted a CAS and three KOs of my own. Sadly, receiving has significant drawbacks, and allowing two KO recovery attempts before the second half is one of them - after an uneventful turn 8 each, both teams set up with 11 players for the second half with the score 1-0 to undead.

Brian, though, is a man full of surprises. An insane (but emphatically successful) long bong play in the second turn left me seven turns to score a winner, an opportunity I didn't much fancy passing up. I set up off balance again and, with a touchback following, gave the ball to my unskilled wight. I was able to take inflict another BH and KO on a slow crawl up the right flank, though ended up in a strange, drifting cloud cage trying to force complex dodge blitzes as I found it increasingly difficult to keep players based. If Brian takes up Wood Elves next year, we're in trouble - they're a natural match.

Anyway, that 2-1 result makes it 5-0-0 so far, and I threw away my 40k winnings as I already have 100k banked and nothing to buy. I'm finding that two rerolls might be enough, but the third is nice to have in my back pocket (as I can use the second in turn 3-5 without worrying), so I don't feel the need to buy or cut any at the moment. The MVP went to the non-MB wight, rolling normals and becoming, um, my second MB wight. I'm due to play either wood or pro elves next week, and with painting slow, this is partly to allow my opponent to recognise my skilled players and partly to accelerate the wights' development.

So, my roster at the moment:
4 x Zombie 0SPP Regen
Zombie 2SPP Regen
Mummy 16SPP Grab, Regen, Block, MB
Mummy 7SPP Grab, Regen, MB
Ghoul 10SPP Block, Dodge
Ghoul 6SPP Block, Dodge
Ghoul 12SPP Strip Ball, Dodge
Ghoul 0SPP Dodge
Wight 8SPP Block, Mighty Blow, Regen
Wight 10SPP Block, Mighty Blow, Regen

It's all very linear so far, but for the second time in as many games, I really felt the absence of Guard in my last match. Guard vs Tackle vs Zombie block is going to be an active dilemma over the next few weeks, I can see that.

Questions for this week:

1) Which of the above would you prioritise for this team? Guard Mummy/Wight, Tackle/Frenzy Wight, or Block on a Zombie? I'm in the position of effectively being able to choose to skill up either a wight or a zombie next time out, but if the mummy comes forward as an MVP target, should I look to take it?
2) Am I doing the right thing by choosing to receive and set up off kilter on offense? With the low movement of the mummies, I feel like it gives me both the chance to cause damage before my opponent has the chance to respond and to protect my flank on one side via the sideline (which makes a good case for frenzy zombie or guard mummy) but would I be better off taking a different stance?

[plasmoid]

Hi Shteve,
Steve from the Daventry League is also reporting to me that Undead have it too damn good in NTBB. So that's 2 out of the 3 big venues. I'm leaning heavily towards snipping the G, and just let them enjoy that cheap linemen go well with buffed fouling.
Cheers
Martin

[Shteve0]

Cool, glad to have helped out. Ultimately it doesn't matter to me either way since I won't be playing them whatever happens next season - I'll quite possibly be fielding the Apes instead!

Played again on Monday, a 2-1 win (1-4 CAS... Yes, really) against Phillip's treeless Wood Elves. A pair of skillups here, a zombie (SPP plant) rolling normal and a Blodge ghoul getting +AG.

1) The skillup Zombie model is a Dirty Player. Is that a wasted skill pick, even if it's nicely thematic?

2) I now have four ghouls, one with blodge AG4, one with blodge, a stripballer (MNG) and a vanilla. What's my development for these? I'm thinking wrestle on the strip ball, followed by tackle - what would you be looking at for the others?

[mattgslater]

AG4/Block Ghoul: Sure Hands, Fend, Side Step. Guard or MB on doubles. KOR is a reasonable alternative after SH.
Block Ghoul: Frenzy, Side Step, Tackle, Fend.
Strip Ghoul: Wrestle, Tackle, Pro, Side Step.
Rookie Ghoul: Block, Side Step, see what you need.
Zombie: There is such a thing as too much Dirty Player. It's a lot of Dirty Player, though. Go ahead and take it.

[Shteve0]

More on this: last week I went with the +AG on the blodge ghoul (I couldn't not) and Dirty Player on a zombie.

This week I faced up to the Apes of Wrath for the second time of the season, in my game 7. The famous Wellington weather kicked in very early - Changing Weather from Pouring Rain to Very Sunny before the ball had even landed from the kick off. In a suitably incident packed first half, I saw my DP ejected in turn 2 and my MB mummy fouled into the KO box as the Apes pushed through a fourth turn score. I managed one back at the end of the half but nevertheless failed to even look like causing a CAS, playing most of the half a player down on my opponent as a result.

Second half I was back to even terms and pushed through a fourth turn touchdown before facing the Ape attack again. Outgrabbed, I forcefed zombies into the gorilla grinder and tried to keep the numbers in my favour with Mummies on the edges (took me a while to get this right) and rely on the Apes burning rerolls, which they promptly did, ending up with a 2TT attempt in Ape turn 6. The long pass into my endzone scattered back up field and my AG4 ghoul grabbed the ball and set up one of my wights for running it in turn 8.

In the post match, my +2 Fame gave me 60k of winnings (promptly binned due to the NTBB cash rule). My two skill rolls for the game came up a 2+2 wight (dodge, surely?) and another 5+6 on my unskilled ghoul. Nuffle continues to come through for me, but at 1.5MGP and seven games in, is my lack of Guard going to tell?

Team now:

4 plain Zombies, 0SPP, Regen
Zombie, 7SPP, Dirty Player, Regen
Mummy, 16SPP, Block, Mighty Blow, Grab, Regen
Mummy, 7SPP, Block, Grab, Regen
Ghoul, 18SPP, Block, +AG, Dodge
Ghoul, 12SPP, Strip Ball, Dodge - Skill in 4 (Wrestle)
Ghoul, 6SPP, +AG, Dodge
Ghoul, 6SPP, Block, Dodge
Wight, 17SPP, Mighty Blow, Dodge, Block, Regen
Wight, 13SPP, Mighty Blow, Block, Regen - Skill in 3 (Guard)

I know, I know, ridiculously min-maxed. I'm most worried about my lack of guard and tackle/frenzy. I suppose I feel like I want a tackle wight and a frenzy wight, though I'm running out of realistic skill slots if I want guard too. So instead, I'm thinking guard on both Wights and frenzy/tackle on the blodge Ghoul; Wrestle on the Strip Ball-er; Block (Guard doubles) on Zombies; and Guard on the Mummies, regardless of rolls. MVPs get slapped on any Zombie that lucks out with a SPP, or are stacked on to the single skill Mummy to push him towards the Guard the team needs.

Sound sane?