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Munkey wrote:DE runners could also pick up Sure Feet or Dodge just as easily, and in fact I would imagine that if they are actually used as runners they would have Dodge fairly quickly.
How many Elves ever really pick up Sure Feet, though? I think a 7 3 4 7 Sure Feet player would be pretty unique, and a genuinely different and valuable addition to the DE roster.
I grab it all the time. especcially for line elves. Having a team that can move 8 consistantly helps to alleviate the "slowness" of Dark Elves.
Also the reason that the runner has surehands is SO he could develop into a thrower, since an elf team without a thrower, later, is an elf team that is asking for problems. The reason we just didn't allow him to have pass, as so that he could get surefeet/dodge, and be able to develop as something OTHER than a thrower. Surehands was the perfect compromise skill.
You would probably have to do a search for many of the "DE's shouldn't have thower" threads (based on ridiculous arguments) to see the evolution of the Runner.
Asperon Thorn
Reason:''
Looking for Fair and Balanced Playtesting of the DE Runner 7347 Surehands G,A,Pa 90K - Outdated and done.
Martynq, to try to answer your original question(s) directly, here are the tactics I've learnt, or I'm currently developing with online games...
1- Hampering the moves of an average opposing player.
You only need to move your players away from opposing players by one square not to be blocked back. In addition, by staying that close (i.e. by not running away by 3, 4, 5 or more squares), your opponent will encounter a lot more impediment to his movement.
- Do you fear that the opponent will jump onto the opportunity to just move his players back next to your own guys again and again until you fail a dodge?... You will realise that by doing that, your opponent will not use those players involved for better things, like protect the ball carrier etc. In a sense, what you will have achieved is controlling the game of your opponent. In such a situation, in 3-4 turns, you can be sure to have a clear shot at the ball carrier, as a guy who just keeps on moving his players in the presently discussed way cannot possibly properly protect the ball at the same time over several turns, unless he's a very very very good BB player.
2- Breaking up that cage...
Typically, a well made cage will include 4-5 players around a ball carrier. Obviously, I will skip the part when you find yourself in a lucky streak and succeed all your leaps with that blitzer or a WD into the cage and knock down the ball carrier...
What you want to do is prevent your opponent from continuously moving his cage players forward, forcing you to dodge away until you fail, giving him a clear run for the TD at one time or another.
First of all, in case you may not already know, you usually need only 6 well-positioned players to slow down a cage enough to prevent it from moving forward by one square at a time. Put your players in pairs, with one square between each pair. Those lines of two players don't have to be 'horizontal' (i.e. parallel to the endzones) - alternate between vertical and horizontal pairs to make the best coverage with as few players as possible. Obviously, don't keep those players more than one square away from the cage to slow down its movement as much as possible (see (1-)). The result of those pairs will be that the opponent, when blitzing one guy, will still find himself forced to make two dodges in one tackle zone + 1 normal dodge to get through the 'loose' wall you will have erected around his cage.
Now this is where things may be new for you, and where I'm currently experimenting...
Assuming you have not been beaten up too hard (yet), you should have between 3-4 players left to pester your opponent in addition to the 6-7 ones used to build that wall around the cage.
Instead of going for the typical blitz on one of the cage players to put the blitzing player directly in contact with the ball carrier (which should typically give your opponent three free blocks on you: one on the guy used to cancel assists, and usually two shots on the blitzing guy standing next the ball carrier), just content yourself with leaving one of your players standing next to a cage player. That will force the latter to dodge away if he wants to move forward with the rest of the cage - if he blocks your guy away, he cannot move as well. He may blitz, but then your opponent will find himself unable to blitz your wall, hoping to make those 3 risky dodges... In addition, mark a cage player who is less than st4 (I think it will be very unlikely to find a cage make of 4 BoBs or CWs...). Why? Because if your opponent wants to blitzer your player away, either he needs to use another player of the cage to give him an assist for a 2db (thus further endangering the cage...) or he rolls a 1db, which is always more risk for your opponent. It's also the kind of situation where side step can be a nice skill for you...
That makes one more of your players used, and only give your opponent one free block for next turn.
Position your 2-3 guys left between the cage and your opponent's other players. The aim is to prevent your opponent from quickly forming a new cage away so that he can bypass your wall. You will see that those 2-3 guys, if reasonably well placed, will force your opponent to do a lot of rolls to move his guys and the ball if he wants to form a new cage in an effective position (that is, a new cage at least as close to the endzone as the previous one...). Additionally, note that those 2-3 guys will also hinder your opponent from bringing that extra assist against the guy standing next to the cage, and force him to use one of the other cage players if he really wants to throw that 2db....
I hope I was clear enough, and that this stuff helps. I obviously cannot say that the second half of (2-) will definitely work (it is still in the experimental stage) but it has been successful for my dark elves so far...
An excellent post and this is exactly what I do, at least the first point of it. However, even with that it is still possible for a good running tem to grind enough down the pitch to run it in. How do I know? Because my last 2 defeats to an Orc team has been this way.
Reason:''
NUFFLE SUCKS! NUFF SAID!
Heretic
Nuffle Blasphemer's Association
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Defending is often about making your opponent roll dice. Maybe you leave him in a situation where he has to POW a player, if he gets the POW you lose, and that can often undermine your confidence in a good strategy.
Defending against bashy teams can be like that with Elves. One or two dice rolls either way make a huge difference - because if you get your hands on the ball again you've probably won.
You can, of course extrapolate that to when your opponent rolls nothing BUT pows, and you nothing but 5's and 6's on Armor rolls, to looking like crap, as well.
Asperon Thorn
Reason:''
Looking for Fair and Balanced Playtesting of the DE Runner 7347 Surehands G,A,Pa 90K - Outdated and done.
DeputyDawg wrote:An excellent post and this is exactly what I do, at least the first point of it. However, even with that it is still possible for a good running tem to grind enough down the pitch to run it in. How do I know? Because my last 2 defeats to an Orc team has been this way.
Thanks DeputyDawg!
It is indeed always possible for a good running team to find its way through the above described, although I do believe that the other coach needs a lot of luck.
He needs 1- not to roll skull hitting the guy next to the cage; 2- manage to knock down with probably 1db one player from the actual 'wall' (unless a BoB, a chaos warrior or a beastman is at hand...); and 3- once there is a two square wide whole, that coach must make two successful dodge rolls in 1 tackle zone (2x 4+ for ag3 players, or 2x3+ for ag4...) and one simple dodge (3+ or 2+)... Frankly, this is quite a series of rolls to make...
ianwilliams wrote: Defending against bashy teams can be like that with Elves. One or two dice rolls either way make a huge difference - because if you get your hands on the ball again you've probably won.
...thus while I agree that each die roll becomes a lot more important when the situation is that tense for both teams, I don't think the possession of the ball and that td depend on 1 or 2 rolls, but 3 or 4 ones at least, which makes it harder for a bashy team to make it.
I got to realise (to my detriment...) that the coach of the defending agile team fails when he starts getting nervous and losing focus (which happens a lot more often than one might think), therefore no longer maintaining an effective wall etc., or when the opponent was lucky enough to take out of the pitch 2-3 more players, making it too hard to have enough guys to keep an effective defense. The best I could do was a near wall with 5 wood elves once (all that was left on the pitch), and still my opponent was only 'mildly' hampered in his run for the td.
i remember a game i played dwarf vs chaos he had a troll plus 3 wars so i did an elf style maneuver, the falling withdraw, you set up a line which has tackle zones from one side to the other and is double thick, then each turn it steps back one square any who fall over stand up step back, the result hopefully is that you maintain your solid formation and stop breakthrough, at that rate it takes 12 turns for the enemy to reach you ez there are only 8 turns therefore you can hold the advance up
Your right there too JJB. Both games my kick off went hay wire leading him to get the ball in a huddle near the LOS. No matter what I did, and got the ball carrier out of his cage, he got it back in again the next turn! He never rolled low dice and KO'd my players. Nothing went my way. I even hired a mage and he rolled over his AG's for all his players!!! Curse Nuffle! Are you a fellow DE JJB?
Reason:''
NUFFLE SUCKS! NUFF SAID!
Heretic
Nuffle Blasphemer's Association
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Jared wrote:i did an elf style maneuver, the falling withdraw, you set up a line which has tackle zones from one side to the other and is double thick, then each turn it steps back one square any who fall over stand up step back, the result hopefully is that you maintain your solid formation and stop breakthrough, at that rate it takes 12 turns for the enemy to reach you ez there are only 8 turns therefore you can hold the advance up
Well, that's what I originally thought with my WEs too... The trouble is, unless all one's elves have dodge (and nobody on the other side has tackle) you can expect to fail a (rerolled) dodge on the second or third turn, allowing your opponent to run for the TD. This is the reason why I realised that you must directly pester the cage as soon as possible to actually prevent it from going forward, even by one square, or at least not going forward 'complete', that is with a hole through which you can reach the ball carrier. In a sense, the aim is to stop having to be the only one relying on die rolls (i.e. dodging continuously) and shifting instead the pressure on your opponent (i.e. by forcing HIS own guys in the cage to dodge away from that single guy pestering the cage (see my previous main post), and better, forcing the ball carrier to dodge himself, and by forcing your opponent to start throwing 1dbs...).
Yup DeputyDawg, I'm a (newly-converted) DE coach. I thought that nothing could beat wood elves, but I just could not cope with the load of casualties I was getting in the line of scrimmage any more + the injuries I got every time I fell while attempting to dodge away, finding myself regularly with only 5-6 players on the pitch by turn 5 of the first half. And I prefer having four blitzers in that DE team than the 2blitzer-4catcher of the high elves (which is why I prefered HEs to DEs two years ago, before the number of blitzers was increased to 4 in the DE roster, since a lion warrior is IMO closer to a blitzer than a witch elf is...).
I was surprised with the success I've had as soon as I converted to DEs.
...Now I have to find a good use for the witch elf in my tactics.
I use the Witches as catchers and also if I am playing lower AV teams as sweepers. I like to use my blitzers as just that Witches can get to a ball carrier but don't necessarily stay around too long afterwards. Good to see another DE on the Board at last.
Reason:''
NUFFLE SUCKS! NUFF SAID!
Heretic
Nuffle Blasphemer's Association
[img]http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=4dd13d90-202c-2355-3cbb-46081754461c&size=[/img]
martynq wrote:The witch elf having AV7 seems to be a problem in addition - if she blocks a big guy and only gets pushbacks then she has to follow up and will surely get splattered next turn. Furthermore a troll slayer has Thick Skull so can cope ever better with ending up next to a BG at the end of his turn.
I have tried the Dauntless WE a couple of times, and she works out well. I usually try to sent her in with at least one teammate to get that 2dblk. If the tandem player has guard all the better. guard doesn't have to stay on the LOS.
I have been losing terriblely with my REBBL Dark Elf team (0-6, 2 games were close - 1 I could've tied if I wasn't stupid on turn8 and 4 were blowouts) Also I tried playing teams that were way too developed for me. probably an average of 50-60 TR better than me. one was a TR difference of 110 adn that was a sad game for me but after 6 games I am TR 138 and have leveled 6 players once.
I have been playing the dodge away give them only one blitz game. but it has never worked. I think in reading this thread in particular has given me some new ideas on how to effectively play that tactic. I like the dodge away one square harrass the cage thing, so I will be trying that next. Just pick a tactic and keep your focus is one of the best strategies that can be learned as a coach.
I'll keep you guys posted as I am about to start the Iced Bun Cup Tourney with the Hellrazers and probably be playing still at a TR disadvantage.
I just won our local league-ending cup with Darkelves. League consisted of around 25(?) teams of all sorts (teams play 12-15 games). And i even had some deaths in the last rounds of the cup.
I allways use my Witches as players that can mess up the opponents structure (or to push out players if they are not careful). Their Frenzy is extremely good. They both have block and sidestep now, and one has tackle. I think using them as catchers is leaving their main strength (Frenzy) unused. Ofcourse there is no problem IF they are in scoring position to use them to score...with AG4 and dodge they are very capable of that...
Ofcourse my view might be blurred a bit by the fact that i was lucky enough to get 3 guardinglinemen.
I thought that nothing could beat wood elves, but I just could not cope with the load of casualties I was getting in the line of scrimmage any more + the injuries I got every time I fell while attempting to dodge away, finding myself regularly with only 5-6 players on the pitch by turn 5 of the first half. And I prefer having four blitzers in that DE team than the 2blitzer-4catcher of the high elves (which is why I prefered HEs to DEs two years ago, before the number of blitzers was increased to 4 in the DE roster, since a lion warrior is IMO closer to a blitzer than a witch elf is...).
