Bashing Elf

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:26 pm

Hi all,
here's my take on this:
PubBowler said:

IF (and I'm still a long way from convinced) that D Elves need a nudge up these are the two pieces that should be looked at.

Perhaps the stats will convince you?
They're at 43% wins in the MBBL, AFAIK.
And if I remember correctly, they aren't doing too hot in Ians tournament stats either(....?)
They're just not that good a starting team - but they do catch up later

Jural said:

The problem with the above? It puts too much block and dodge on the starting Dark Elf roster.

I think you're right.
So my suggestion to put dodge on the assassin probably isn't a good one.
Which is why I think the best fix would just be sure hands on the runner.

@Whitetiger:
Like I said, I love ST-skill witches. But it won't help the team early on, and that is where the team is weak. Once it grows, it gets quite good.

Jural said:

The BBRC is against Sure Hands on the Dark Elf runner, so that's never happening.

I'm not sure that is true. The BBRC were against it in the design phase of LRB5, because they feared that it would make the dark elf team too good. Now that we know that it is actually a bit weak, it might just be the simple elegant fix:
A stability skill which is useful, and which the team would take soon enough anyway.

So. That's what I'd do:
Runner 7347 sure hands.
I think it's simple, a unique piece (for an elf) and useful without carrying around loads of good stuff that could break the team later on.

Cheers
Martin

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:45 pm

Sure hands on the runner is definately an improvement. It at least gives him a skill that is useful on most plays. Dump off gets used so rarely that it's worthless. Just a waste of a skill. They'd be better off starting with nothing and just give their armour back to them.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:03 pm

plasmoid wrote:
Jural said:
The BBRC is against Sure Hands on the Dark Elf runner, so that's never happening.
I'm not sure that is true. The BBRC were against it in the design phase of LRB5, because they feared that it would make the dark elf team too good.

Actually, I believe Galak and Ian have both stated that the 1 in 6 chance of failing the initial pick-up is a balancing part of the elven teams, and without it they would secure the ball too easily. So it wasn't nixed from a Dark Elf point of view, it was nixed from an "all elves" point of view.

Maybe they have changed their mind, or maybe I remember wrong.

I agree with this, by the way. If you have a 35/36 chance to pick up the ball, you can use your re-rolls on blocks and dodges etc. Considering you can start with so much block and dodge, I don't think the Dark Elves, or any elf team, should have Sure Hands on a starting positional.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:17 pm

plasmoid wrote: PubBowler said:
IF (and I'm still a long way from convinced) that D Elves need a nudge up these are the two pieces that should be looked at.
Perhaps the stats will convince you?
They're at 43% wins in the MBBL, AFAIK.
And if I remember correctly, they aren't doing too hot in Ians tournament stats either(....?)
They're just not that good a starting team - but they do catch up later

No, they're not doing so well in tournies according to DoubleSkulls.
And they are decidedly average in the MBBL.

But this doesn't mean they need a boost.
Someone has to be the bottom Tier 1 team (D Elves at the minute although Amazon, Chaos, Chaos Dwarf & Necromantic are all close).

And we have some powerful opinions about how nasty a developed side can be.

I also think there is a certain hang over from people trying out less than powerful positionals, which is the one flaw that I see in the current roster.

It has players that are far from must haves.
Which is unusual for a BB positional.

So I think a boost to the Assassin (the best target for a change I think) might be worth some thought. For me, MA7.

But I don't think it'll happen, there are too many voices that feel the assassin is too good as it is or don't like Stab to get a consensus.

Not to mention the only member of the BBRC who has commented gave a pretty emphatic no.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:58 pm

I think it's kinda funny to say that sure hands on the DE runner is too overpowering a starting skill when all the other elf passers come with pass. Sure hands doesn't even add to SPP.

I can understand that some people think that it's the Assassin that needs a boost. I think it just needs to go away. Stab is fairly useless and doesn't add to SPP anyway.

Just lose the Assassin and give the runner a bit of a boost and all will be good.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:40 pm

whitetiger wrote:I think it's kinda funny to say that sure hands on the DE runner is too overpowering a starting skill when all the other elf passers come with pass. Sure hands doesn't even add to SPP.

SPP doesn't win tournaments. It doesn't win games. It doesn't influence stats. SPPs have (and should continue to have) no influence on game balance or team balance.

Stab is fairly useless and doesn't add to SPP anyway.

Stab is far from useless, it's just a lot more situational than some other skills. Much like Multiple Block, Sure Feet and Jugggernaut. Some games, they don't get used, some games, they win it for you.

Also, see previous comment on SPPs.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:29 am

tenwit wrote: Stab is far from useless, it's just a lot more situational than some other skills.

I find Stab is useful sporadically, not situationally. I have played a game against Nurgle where my assassin was on fire and stunned 2 Warriors, killed a third, and KO'd 2 rotters, and I've played a game against Skaven where he was useless, getting 10+ attempts to break AV7 and not doing it even once !

But a skill which never causes a turnover is never situational- it should be used every turn it can be, and often as the first move in the turn.

It's the reason I hate the skill and the assassin. It's just wrong (in my view) to have a no risk activity in Blood Bowl. And by no risk, I mean the chance of turnover is nil but the odds of success (stun or better) are not neglibible (almost always better than 1/6, often approaching 1/3 or 1/4!!)

It's why I would also be against STR 4 players starting with block.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:34 pm

tenwit wrote:
whitetiger wrote:I think it's kinda funny to say that sure hands on the DE runner is too overpowering a starting skill when all the other elf passers come with pass. Sure hands doesn't even add to SPP.
SPP doesn't win tournaments. It doesn't win games. It doesn't influence stats. SPPs have (and should continue to have) no influence on game balance or team balance.

Stab is fairly useless and doesn't add to SPP anyway.
Stab is far from useless, it's just a lot more situational than some other skills. Much like Multiple Block, Sure Feet and Jugggernaut. Some games, they don't get used, some games, they win it for you.

Also, see previous comment on SPPs.

No, SPPs don't help in almost all tournements, however, most people play in leagues, and SPP definately helps there. And in 10 or 12 games, you've got a Wood Elf passer with block, accurate and safe throw. That'll help win a few games.

As for the Assassin, usually the situation is using him in a game against players your blitzers and linemen can take care of anyway. And once again, the Assassin isn't really helping to build your league team, it's just tearing down the other guy's team. I know a lot of people like that, and there is a good arguement for it. But I prefer to build my own team if its a choice between destroying or building.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:40 pm

whitetiger wrote:I think it's kinda funny to say that sure hands on the DE runner is too overpowering a starting skill when all the other elf passers come with pass. Sure hands doesn't even add to SPP.

The thinking behind Sure Hands being too good for a starting Elf team is the low risk of turnover on that first pick up.

A 1/36 risk of failure was considered too efficient on a player which can cover the vast majority of his half.

So it's not that it's too powerful regarding SPP development but that it makes the risk of turnover too low.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:31 pm

So far alot of bashing of the Dark elf runners. Has no one noticed that these guys can get that hideous dumpoff, NOS combination very early out the box?

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:23 pm

SillySod wrote:So far alot of bashing of the Dark elf runners. Has no one noticed that these guys can get that hideous dumpoff, NOS combination very early out the box?

Dump-Off Pass is much better.

And besides, my Dark Elf startegies generally revolve around not having STR 3 AV 7 player taking hits without Block and Dodge... even if they have NOS!

In that regard, Pass is the better skill. Sure Hands has completely different roles, but is also a good choice.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:17 pm

I tend to take my runners - pass, surehands, dodge. And I usually only take one runner on a team. If I get a lineman with a +MA, he becomes my second runner. Otherwise, I just use whatever Lineman or Blitzer needs a few SPP for a skill up.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:08 am

Hi guys,

PubBowler said:

But this doesn't mean they need a boost. Someone has to be the bottom Tier 1 team

True. I'm more bothered how far the bottom of tier 1 is from the average of tier 1.
I think darkies could be lifted and still be bottom of tier 1.

Jural said:

Actually, I believe Galak and Ian have both stated that the 1 in 6 chance of failing the initial pick-up is a balancing part of the elven teams, and without it they would secure the ball too easily. So it wasn't nixed from a Dark Elf point of view, it was nixed from an "all elves" point of view.

I remember it as a specific reply in LRB5 design concerning the dark elf team. But I can see how it can also be considered a "balancing factor" on all elf teams.

The thing is, it doesn't make sense (to me) to have such a balancing factor in place on a team that wins 43% of their games. I think sure hands on the runner would be a perfect mini boost, which doesn't open up a pandoras box that spills over and makes a developed dark elf side better.

Oh well.
Cheers
Martin

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:28 am

plasmoid wrote: PubBowler said:
But this doesn't mean they need a boost. Someone has to be the bottom Tier 1 team
True. I'm more bothered how far the bottom of tier 1 is from the average of tier 1.
I think darkies could be lifted and still be bottom of tier 1.

I think that Amazon, Chaos, Chaos Dwarf & Necromantic are all close enough to be considered within the margin of error.

But I'd be happy with a small boost to Assassins to make them a more common selection. As I think they should be.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:37 am

I still think it odd that all other elf teams come with a passer with the pass skill and so many people think that giving the DE runner sure hands would be over powering. Just seems odd.

Coming out the gate so many other teams just kick the crap out of the DE, they just need a bit of a boost. I don't understand why there wouldn't be more of a consensus to throw them a bone.