Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[plasmoid]

Strange - building your team is the means while winning (or trying to) is the end.
Somebody got those mixed up

It's kind of like saying that the purpose of playing golf is to whack balls.

[Darkson]

It's kind of like saying that the purpose of playing golf is to whack balls.

You've watched my brother play then....

[Ravenal]

... some session problems made this post fail!

[Ravenal]

In full BB, there are several match-ups that favour one side. With 24 very different teams, it is simply impossible to have total equilibrium between all the possible match-ups.

That's very true ... but I do assume there is supposed to be some competitive platform among bashy teams where they are playing on a somewhat level ground. Otherwise you'd of course have a circle of team x beats y which gets beaten by y which gets beaten by x ... most of the time.

Take fully pumped tear big holes in high-AV kind of chaos team (i.e. several claw, might, PiOn players) and pit them against AV7 teams with a similar TV and a smattering of fend. Suddenly the chaos team has a lot of wasted TV.

It has been established that this is of course not the correct way to build a team ... there might be a few griefers out there that do this and specifically target high AV teams to crush.

This would work in the same manner as Dodge works (or doesn't) against dwarfs. You always have this situation where you pick skills that will not work against team X ... or at least work to a lesser extent.

As for the power of claw - I'm pretty sure that if it had only worked against AV9, there would have been an outcry against the lack of blood. For the record, previous versions of the game had a mutation that added +2 to the injury roll (no combo with MB) and piling on gave +ST to the armour roll. So chaos teams could have chaos warriors with +4/+2(!)
Go even further back, and you could use team rerolls (and pro) on armor/injury.

I think it was simply a case of "the nerfing must stop here!"

Well, I say it stopped too late and/or too soon at the same time. Given claw as an accessible skill for all bashy teams you have a skill that targets half of the teams (approx) and quite some players among dodgy teams. Even if you only target AV9. Picking how many claw players you want to have would be like picking how many strip ballers or frenzy players you want.

More teams with "claw" that targets AV9+ = about the same amount of blood, if not more.

I might be somewhat biased in this because my work experience has made me somewhat sensitive to the subject of griefing. If there is a possibility for griefing that means something is not in balance. Looking at the data, griefing is usually invisible ... and where claw is concerned, I see a griefing possibility. Building a team specifically just to play high AV teams with the purpose of inflicting casualties. Now, IF a claw like ability was generally available to more teams then it would be general access and thus not griefing but a built in bashing mechanic.

It's a subtle difference, but its there.

[sann0638]

Just looked up griefing, because I like learning new words:

A griefer is a player whose only objective in the game is to cause grief. Such players are a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since they often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

But probably most people already knew that. In tabletop, seems like these people might stop being invited to parties...

[Ravenal]

But probably most people already knew that. In tabletop, seems like these people might stop being invited to parties...

Which is why it's not a problem in TT, like already stated.

[Darkson]

Then what's the purpose of this thread? If griefing isn't a problem TT, then Claw isn't a problem TT. And seeing as the rules are written for TT, the rules aren't a problem.

So it boils down to your problem being Cyanide's/Focus' poor choice/management of their online"league", which is hardly the rules fault. Sounds lie your complaining to the wrong people.

[Ullis]

And nerfing Claw into a skill that would never ever be picked before MB wouldn't stop the griefing. It would just take other forms such as more DP.

I don't see a problem with Chaos being the top killer team once they reach high TV. It even fits the fluff perfectly. Requiring that all teams that fall under the "bashy" category should be equally able to withstand punishment doesn't make any sense. Additionally, the Claw+MB+Piling On combo is an important arsenal for Skaven and Underworld teams when facing bashers.

I think the real underlying problem is people who can't stand losing players* because I'm sure every league has run into those types of players (they usually leave). Those players of course gravitate to bashy teams in the first place too because of AV9. And when they face the choice between high and pro elves they take high elves.

* I'm not accusing Ravenal of this, but Cyanide seems to have more than its fair share of these, leading to the appearance of there being an issue with this

[Ravenal]

So it boils down to your problem being Cyanide's/Focus' poor choice/management of their online"league", which is hardly the rules fault. Sounds lie your complaining to the wrong people.

* I'm not accusing Ravenal of this, but Cyanide seems to have more than its fair share of these, leading to the appearance of there being an issue with this

The game has been played in an online format for how long now? How long during this time has there been a problem with excessive bonuses to AV/Injury?

Standard TT doesn't suffer (much, if any) from this ... but I've been around for long enough to know when people stop wanting to play against team X because of the sheer kill ratio it grinds through. The problem isn't there in TT because people can check out the team they are going up against and say: "you know... I'd rather not, this is a silly team and it'll be a boring game".

Like my reply to this quote was:

But probably most people already knew that. In tabletop, seems like these people might stop being invited to parties...

... which does not mean claw in itself isn't the issue.

[Darkson]

The game has been played in an online format for how long now? How long during this time has there been a problem with excessive bonuses to AV/Injury?

Online play since 3rd ed. The occansional person complaining about AV/Injury bonuses - normally dwarf players that can't stand losing players.

[plasmoid]

Ravenal said:

but I do assume there is supposed to be some competitive platform among bashy teams where they are playing on a somewhat level ground.

Why?
..well, that depends on what you mean by somewhat .
Seriously, I don't understand why they should be more equal than any other group of teams.
Dwarfs a stronger against wood-elf/skaven than chaos is.
I see no problem with chaos being better than dwarfs when going toe to toe.
Just don't let the rock-scissor-paper analogy mislead you = it's not a 100% guaranteed win on those match-ups. It's just somewhat better odds.

Cheers
Martin

[Pink Horror]

If Claw is too powerful, get more wood elf teams in your league.

[Pug]

..More Welfs???!!!.................I personally think that all Welf players should be hunted down, shot and hung in the Village green as a reminder to others of the folly of such ways!...

If you really need to play Welf....don't play BB!! Rankers!!!

[Alamar]

I think Claw is reasonable enough as is. If you change Claw much you either get nobody choosing the skill [at all?] or you make it too good.

By the time Chaos gets Block, MB, Claw, PO, and Tackle [to really put fear in folks] it's almost irrelevant because so few [TT] teams advance significantly past this point anyway. Even then if enough fouls are thrown this player won't hang around too long even if you're trying to be careful with them.

As far as winning goes my 2.2M TV team doesn't win that often anyway nor can they effectively counter AG / Dodge / Speed teams well enough to do anything.

Leagues with seasons where teams are retired periodically shouldn't have issues ... Ladder leagues with again rules don't have problems [if nobody challenges the team] ... only pure perpetual leagues that last for months/years seem to have issues.

[Lamanzer]

It seems to me that one of the main effects of Claw in a long-running league is to provide a balance to counter the AV9 teams who might otherwise dominate through better survival rates. If that was the intention of the BBRC, full marks to them.

Thanks ... in pure honesty ... yes that was the intention (not a cool side effect) ... we meant to do this one.

Galak

Well... It's the most interesting thing.. and perhaps the most annoying...

So Chaos MB/claws/PO combo was created to counter dominating AV9 teams...

Perhaps the problem is not MB/claws, but just dominating AV9 teams?

So nerf Dwarf, Orcs...

and:

Claw / Claws (Mutation)
A player with this skill is blessed with a huge crab like claw or razor sharp
talons that make armour useless. When an opponent is Knocked Down
by this player during a block, any Armour roll of 8 or more automatically breaks armour. You may not modify this roll

----------------

Edit: After much thought on the problem, I'm not sure that is the right solution