Underworld strategy advice - please help

[Khail]

Here's what I'm going with in my upcoming league:

1 Warpstone Troll - 110k
2 Stormvermin - 180k
2 Linerats - 100k
1 Skaven Thrower - 70k
7 Underworld Goblins - 280k

3 Rerolls - 210k
Apothecary - 50k

1000k Total

No reason to leave yourself vulnerable without an Apoth when you can still pull off 13 players and 3 RR.

[mattgslater]

Besides, Throwers are easy to skill.

[Smeborg]

Khail - I agree that it seems right to start with an Apoth.

Let us know how you get on with that roster. I am guessing (and it is really only a guess) that you will miss the extra ST of the 2nd Thrower in your first couple of games. Also, if the 1st Thrower is put in the dugout (or MNGd), you have no ball movement skills left. And it may well take you 2 games to save enough for the 2nd Thrower.

I went with a similar starting roster:

Troll
6 Skaven
5 Gobbos
3 RR
Apoth
TV 99

As you can see, it is like your roster, but I dropped 2 Gobbos in order to take the 2nd Thrower. My reasoning was that I only had to survive 1 game with 12 players (admittedly light), and after that it was just "buy Gobbos" (which, being cheap, I might be able to start doing right away).

All the best.

[Khail]

Interesting - I'll give it a shot both ways (got a month and a half of prep time until the league kicks off). After thinking about it, you're probably right Smeborg, though it may be 6 of one half dozen of the other.

If I decide to go on a fouling spree early, the extra gobbo could be handy. The extra 3 strength piece on the table has definite appeal though.

[Smeborg]

Khail - although I have no problem with fouling, either as a strategy or merely tactically, I have not found myself taking many fouls with Underworld, unless I have a Bribe. The reason is that the roster shrinks quite a bit during each match, and it is often a struggle to get to the last long drive with 11 men. Sometimes it is a struggle to get to the second half with 11 men. So I have tended to prefer not to foul, in favour of keeping players on the field.

[Khail]

Wise words, heh. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

[Smeborg]

Khail - another consideration worth bearing in mind is that I have not yet taken a Bribe as an inducement. If I have 100,000 "spare" in inducements, I will normally take an Apothecary. This is a different dynamic to Gobbos, where it is difficult to resist the temptation to take 1-2 Bribes as a routine part of inducements.

I can imagine taking a Bribe + Fezglitch, and using the Bribe for fouling if Fezglitch is taken out (which he often will be). However, I am not sure I will take Fezglitch often, as the other Stars are very appealing (Glart against a high AV team, and Skitter against a low AV team - I have already used Skitter to good effect).

So I find with Underworld that I foul more in the "normal" way, i.e. against "targets of opportunity" (Wardancers, Witch Elves, Gutter Runners, Ghouls etc. - the list is endlesss), or when I have a genuine chance of getting superiority in numbers.

Hope that helps, and all the best with your team!

[Smeborg]

I suffered only my second loss in 15 games, this time against well coached and well developed Skaven. I took a Wizard and a Bribe as inducements. The Wizard failed utterly (a Fireball aimed at 5 Skaven players did not hit a single one of them). The Bribe worked, as I made an important tactical foul with one of my precious Skaven players, and the Bribe allowed him to stay on the pitch.

It was a very wild game, with the half-time score 0-0 (who would put money on that?). Final score 2-1 to the Skaven. Yet again, it seems this Underworld team needs to be "unlucky" to lose a game. Twice they had an 8/9 chance of scoring and failed (a failed hand-off to a Gobbo, with re-roll; a failed 3+ dodge by a ball carrying Gobbo, with Dodge). And my opponent scored after a Blitz result on the Kick-off Table (my team had obviously forgotten rule 2 of BB: Do not get Blitzed by Skaven - rule 1 is: First knock down your Dwarf). The Underworld had good fortune in the first half (Skaven received and failed to score).

A rich and entertaining game. The Underworld won the CAS battle easily (3 Guards to 1; both teams had 1 Claw/M-Blow player). The Skaven were down to 10 for the second half, and 9 for the last drive, with the Underworld keeping their strongest 11 on the pitch (not without luck). Gobbos sailed into the dugout with monotonous regularity.

I did not feel a lack of Tackle in this match, as the only player able to Blitz ball carrying Gutter Runners was my 2-Heads Gobbo. Sadly, he failed every attempt, although he got as far as the block on 2 or 3 occasions. That would appear to confirm the case for Horns as second skill on the Gobbos. A second Gobbo got the MVP and 2-Heads after the match.

There is a pleasant schizophrenia in the skill development options for the Underworld, namely whether to counter ST teams or AG teams (or both!). It is too early to know if my strategy (both!) is correct.

[Smeborg]

OK, here is my team after 17 games (12 wins, 3 draws, 2 losses). Losses were against near-rookie Dark Elves and well-developed Skaven, draws were against High Elves, Dwarfs (both lucky) and Amazons. The team has played 17 different opponents (15 different races).

W-Troll: Claw, Guard (28)
S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow (20)
S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow (20)
Thrower: +1MA, Block, X-Arms, K-Ret (57)
Thrower: Leader (12)
Linerat: +1MA, Wrestle, Horns (45)
Linerat: Kick, Wrestle, [-1MA] (21)
Gobbo: 2-Heads, Block (16)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (10)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (8)
Gobbo: Block (7)
4 rookie Gobbos
3xRR
8xFF
Apoth
TV163
470,000 cash

I am finally getting to retain some skilled Gobbos. I decided on Block on the doubles Gobbos, since our league is beginning to get fairly developed (many teams with c. 15 games). In practice this means lots of Blodge ball carriers, against whom Wrestle alone on a Gobbo is ineffective. Block is good for survival and annoyance value (by staying standing). The Gobbos still fly into the dugout (6 Gobbo CAS in the last game, 4 of them because of Stunty).

I am still quite unsure what to give a Gobbo with 2-Heads, Horns as his 3rd skill. I am tending towards either Guard or Fend on a doubles, and Big Hand or Horns or even Sidestep on a normal skill. As has been said before, maybe I dream, as 3-skill Gobbos seem only to occur in dreams (or nightmares, if you are on the other side of the table).

Skill retention on the "positional" players is outstandingly good, normally a prelude to multiple deaths. The Horned Linerat is proving particularly difficult to skill up further, as he receives a lot of attention. If I can get another few skills on the Skaven (and perhaps Tentacles on the Troll), the team will go from rather good to truly outstanding. If only...

All the best.

[Smeborg]

As posted above, I gave Block to a couple of Gobbos. I don't regret it at all - it has hugely improved their survivability and ability to stay on the pitch.

As the team and the league mature, it is clear that while Gobbos are targets of opportunity for opponents, the Skaven players are the targets of choice. This leads to common situations where the Underworld have to defend long drives with fewer Skaven and more Gobbos. Accordingly, I am leaning towards the following "single build" skill path for the Gobbos (get anywhere, stay there):

Normal: 2-Heads, Sidestep
Doubles: Block

What to do on a third normal skill or a second doubles roll is a problem which can safely be left in dreamland for now.

All the best.

[cyagen]

Like your single build strategy for Gobo but you should add the folowing rule, any Gobo with Block gets Horns on the next skill.

Will make him very effective at getting 1d blitzes on the ball carrier

[mattgslater]

I like the single-build strategy. At 31/51/2nd double, you can get creative, or build for toolbox value. Say, Horns at 51 after Block/2H/SS, or Block/Guard on double doubles, following with SS before 2H.

[Smeborg]

3 issues formed part of my decision-making:

(a) 2-Heads is the most important skill for Gobbos. After that all mutations are situational. Protecting the 2-Heads Gobbo seems more important than adding mutations.

(b) I started with the idea of 2 builds. Practical play leads me back to a single build strategy.

(c) On other mutant teams, I have found you do not need heaps of mutations on a player. 1 or 2 mutations out of 4 or 5 skills seems just fine. Maybe Gobbos aren't that different.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Just had an interesting idea for a second double on a Gobbo (after Block): Frenzy. I've done quite a few crowd-surfs with 2-Heads Gobbos already (uphill blocks). The opponent doesn't expect it.

Ahhh, so many skills, so few skilled Gobbos...

[Smeborg]

OK, here's my team after 20 games against 20 different opponents (16 different races). 13 wins, 4 draws, 3 losses. Losses were against Dark Elves, Skaven, Necros, draws were against High Elves, Dwarfs, Amazons, Orcs.

W-Troll: Claw, Guard (28)
S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow (25)
S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow (23)
Thrower: +1MA, Block, X-Arms, K-Ret (64)
Thrower: Leader, Block (16)
Linerat: +1MA, Wrestle, Horns, Tackle (58)
Linerat: Kick, Wrestle [-2MA] (21
Gobbo: 2-Heads, Block [-1MA] (16)
Gobbo: Block [mng] (9)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (10)
Gobbo: 2-Heads (10)
Gobbo: - (3)
Gobbo: - (2)
3 rookie Gobbos (0)
3 RR
9 FF
Apoth
TV 165 (172 if you add the mng Gobbo)

I am now running with a 16 player roster (in practice there always seem to be 1 or 2 mng players). I expect TV to plateau at around 190-195, and look forward to getting Claw on the S-Vermin sooner rather than later. The Troll and Skaven players are skilling up at a very nice even rate (differences in skill numbers are due partly to MVPs). Permanent injuries are mainly due to botched surgery, which has a fine tradition in our league.

My build is, I would say, fairly traditional in BB terms: 3 Guard lumps, 2 Runners, 2 Ball Hunters, 3 team skills (Kick, Leader, K-Ret). The team is light on Tackle and Claw. If the players survive, I would expect to remedy this situation soon. Player survival is surprisingly good. A Linerat was retired after the first game, another carries 2 injuries (unfortunately he is not suitable for line-fodder as he is the kicker). 7 Gobbos have been killed or retired, but they have taken 4 skills and 39 SPPs to the grave with them (this is bound to happen, as it is the skilled Gobbos who start on the pitch). Only two Gobbos have got to 2 skills, one of then died immediately, the other was soon crippled. So I do not expect ever to have many Gobbos with 2 skills, let alone 3.