Alternative Humans

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:16 pm

ianwilliams wrote:But my point is I want to change the way the team plays. I want the passing niche to be occupied by 'zons and Humans to be a little more bash orientated.

Totally agree on that one : for a supposed jack-of-all-trades team, Humans are just not bashy enough.
The best solution to fix that point, without changing the minis, is to boost Catchers ST.

Now, like someone said before, the more I look at Ian's roster, the more I think that blitzers should be slower than Catchers. IMHO, Blitzers would be more appropriate this way :

Blitzer : 6 3 3 8 Block, Sure Feet 80 k
(note that skavs' coaches couldn't complain anymore about about having the same blitzers for +10k)

note : for those who are affraid of the power of 8 potential St 3 blitzers, remenber that :
1) Catchers are keeping AV 7, so they will still die very often (Catchers are MEANT to be torn to pieces in BB !!!)
2) Rookie Catchers don't have Block, and they'll need to get some Sure Feet/Sprint if they don't want to be left behind against faster guys.

Add to this list Tackle / Strip Ball and you'll see it's not really easy to turn those "ever-dying" guys into effective Blitzers.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:02 pm

Actually, I think either stat boost will do what you want. 3/7 Catchers will be able to make a hit, and will be able to hold out against one-on-one action, but will get hurt a lot and will have to either cost more, pay a penalty, or both. 2/8 Catchers will be useless for blitzing with, but will make great wandering assists and situationally good man-markers, with reasonable durability and a reasonable price. Either way, Humans will come off as a mid-point between your new 'Zons and the existing Norse: not nearly as aggressive as Norse, but faster and at least as tough, and not nearly as nimble or free-flowing as Amazons, but tougher and harder-hitting, and not any slower (at the top).

An alternative to reducing Blitzer price, if that's too much, would be to reduce the Ogre price to 130k. Look at other 140k big guys, and it's justifiable. You could couple that either with a net improvement for Catchers (either a free AV point or the 80k Ghoul with Catch), or with a price break on Blitzers and increased TRR cost to equal essentially a 20k-ish savings on the starting team.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:10 pm

Lets try it again...

0-16 Linemen 6338 G/ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP/AS 70k
0-4 Catchers 8237 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 60k
0-4 Blitzer 6338 Block, Sure Feet GS/AP 80k
0-1 Ogre 5529 unchanged S/GAP 140k

Rerolls: 50k

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:27 pm

OK, omitting a new position for the moment, there are two real questions remaining here.

1) Do Humans need a price break?

2) Do Catchers need to be different?

Nobody has suggested any profile changes to any position but the Catcher and Blitzer, or the addition of a new position (again, leaving off for the moment), and the Blitzer suggestions have mostly been responses to proposed changes to the Catcher.

If the answer to 1 is yes, the propositions are:
A) Reduce Blitzer cost to 80k. Net savings 40k +10k whenever a Blitzer dies. If E is selected, possibly add -1MA, Sure Feet
B) A, plus increase TRR cost to 60k. Net savings 10k, -20k at some point, +10k whenever a Blitzer dies.
C) Reduce Catcher cost to 60k. Net savings 10k-20k initially, plus 10k every time a Catcher is hired.
D) Reduce Ogre price to 130k. Net savings 10k.

If the answer to 2 is yes, the propositions are:
C) Above
E) Ghoul with Catch, 80k (modify Blitzer if A or B is selected)
F) Ghoul with Catch, Sprint 90k (depending on costing sense may preclude A or B)
G) +AV

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:28 pm

why did the blitzer drop in price when it gained sure feet but lost MA? didnt think the woodie catcher dropped when it did that.
also i like MA 7 blitzers, plus again catchers should not be cheaper than they currently are (especially when amazon catchers are MA6 and 70k). pay 10k more than a lineman for catch, dodge, +2MA but -1 ST/AV. they would be far too cheap.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:30 pm

katadder wrote:why did the blitzer drop in price when it gained sure feet but lost MA? didnt think the woodie catcher dropped when it did that.
also i like MA 7 blitzers, plus again catchers should not be cheaper than they currently are (especially when amazon catchers are MA6 and 70k). pay 10k more than a lineman for catch, dodge, +2MA but -1 ST/AV. they would be far too cheap.

Some people are looking for 80k Blitzers and MA7 Catchers. If you want both, then trading MA down for Sure Feet makes a lot of sense.

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:44 pm

I think the whole discussion has already come to a very good and sensible conclusion with 80k blitzers and 7 3 3 7 catch dodge catchers.

Don't see no need to roll it up again.

Rather, the question is:

@ doubleskulls:

Is it still possible to get the roster into lrb 6 ?
I know it's not very probable, but maybe not impossible, given the current winrates for humans...

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:49 pm

it is impossible for any changes to the human roster to get in LRB6

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:55 pm

I'd hope nobody would make anything "official" or "settled" out of a theorybowl discussion like this one. Modifying a player's ST is major surgery, comes with a bunch of caveats about balance and power level, and would take a lot of playtesting to put any confidence in. Try it for a season, and hopefully others will try other concepts worked out here, and we'll have a clear idea well ahead of LRB7. Now is the time for conceptual divergence, not convergence.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:28 pm

Or we could do down a different route altogether and just make the Catcher harder to pin down and kill. Such as giving them Fend or Sidestep.

~Andromidius

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:22 pm

Imperial Pact
0-16 Lino 50k Animosity
0-4 Halfling 30k (and happy to be there)
0-2 Pro Elf 60k Animosity
0-2 Thrower 70k Animosity
0-2 Catcher 70k Animosity
0-2 Dwarf Blitzer 80k Animosity
0-2 Blitzer 90k Animosity (0-4?)
0-1 Ogre 140k (and too dumb to know why people can't just get along)

TRR 50k (60k?)

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:43 am

prisma wrote:Is it still possible to get the roster into lrb 6 ?
I know it's not very probable, but maybe not impossible, given the current winrates for humans...

I am not interested in putting this forward for LRB6. The amount of play testing required on changes like this is a lot more than can reasonably be achieved in 6 months.

Really this is a question of putting up rosters that, if there is an LRB7, we have already fleshed out and can put forward immediately so we get plenty of play testing time.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:47 am

mattgslater wrote:Imperial Pact

Shouldn't this go in its own thread? Or are you proposing it as a replacement for humans?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:05 am

It just occurred to me as an alternative for coaches who like the idea of Humans with blockers. It includes some other misc. fluff, sure....

Glorian Underhill · Post by **Glorian Underhill** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:25 am

mattgslater wrote:.

A) Reduce Blitzer cost to 80k. Net savings 40k +10k whenever a Blitzer dies. If E is selected, possibly add -1MA, Sure Feet
B) A, plus increase TRR cost to 60k. Net savings 10k, -20k at some point, +10k whenever a Blitzer dies.
C) Reduce Catcher cost to 60k. Net savings 10k-20k initially, plus 10k every time a Catcher is hired.
D) Reduce Ogre price to 130k. Net savings 10k.

If the answer to 2 is yes, the propositions are:
C) Above
E) Ghoul with Catch, 80k (modify Blitzer if A or B is selected)
F) Ghoul with Catch, Sprint 90k (depending on costing sense may preclude A or B)
G) +AV

I think that mattslagers options summs it up. If the Idea is for the 7337 Catcher, ie option E, than the Blitzers needs to drop one MV(A). I didn't like the idea, but it would stop this 8 player movement 7 diskussion.

With this theoretical set up the human team would have:

0-4 Blitzers, which are better wights, (Sprint) but without regenerate.
0-4 Catchers, which are better ghouls (Catch)
0-12 Lineman which are still more pricey than the zombies.
0-2 Throwers which have no equvalent in the undead team.
0-1 Ogre, who is more than a liabillity

So the humans would have more speed and movement than the undead team, but without its cheap lineman and the all to good mumy. Please don't compare it with the ogre, as two ST5 never stupid mumies with reRoll use are 3 times as good as the ogre. With MV6 Blitzers the Ball handling and TD making would clearly switch towards the Catchers who would then fullfill the work of todays Blitzers. But without the Blocking stuff, more with ball running and blitzing on long distances, while the Blitzers would accomplish the short range Blitzes, Blocking on the Line, and Guard supplement for the Cage breaking.

MV7 Blitzers and 7337 Catchers would be good, MV6 Blitzers would give them a slight boost, but wouldn't set them on par with the undead team.

So I would really like to playtest this human team as I think it would take a lot of speed out of them.

Under Option A,B,E this seems like my setup for TR 100:

Anzahl Summe
Blitzer 80 4 320
Catcher 80 3 240
Thrower 70 2 140
Lineman 50 2 100
Ogre 140 0 0
ReRoll 60 3 180
FF 10 2 20
11 Total: 1000

11 players, 3 Rerolls no reserveplayer.

1st Skill Block: on one of the Catchers (Minigriff),
following Skills Guard on the Blitzers.