A fist full of upgrade opinions wanted....

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:07 am

I don't know if the positive karmic forelash (as opposed to backlash) of all Nuffle's done to me evened out today; Nuffle took a vacation; or my opponent p'o'ed the perverse dice whore somethin' awful... but it was a Necro/Orc dice-fest today (made all 16 Troll really stupid rolls!) and the poor Ogres often made double skulls and trip-1s....

Well, the love-fest continued through the skill-ups (four total).... Now I ain't about to ask whether or not my Gobbo should accept 6+6... of course he did! And my replacement Werewolf made his first upgrade of 5+6 and now I have 3(!) Ag 4 players!!!

The other two are less obvious: Doubles on a Guard Black Orc and a regular upgrade on a Strength 4 Blitzer.... Here's the Orc team:

Goblin 6337 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Catch, +1 ST
Goblin 6237 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Catch, Sure Feet
Black Orc 4429 MB, Guard
Black Orc 4429 Block
Black Orc 4429 Block, Guard
Black Orc 4429 Guard, ?
Thrower 5338 Sure Hands, Pass, Nerves of Steel, Accurate
Troll 4519 Loner, Always Hungry, Mighty Blow, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Throw Team-Mate, Break Tackle, Block, Guard
Blitzer 6339 Block, Guard, MB
Blitzer 6339 Block, Pro, Guard
Blitzer 6439 Block, +ST, MB, Tackle, ?
Blitzer 6339 Block, Guard, MB

Some thoughts:

Blorc--- There may never be another chance to get Dodge, but a Sidestepping Guarder is tres annoying.... I'd feel better about Sidestep if he only had Block....

Blitzer--- Does Grab work on a Blitz?! ["The only thing that grab does during a blitz is cancel sidestep" GalakStarscraper.] (Found that on the GW site... so Grab is not anywhere near sufficient imho....) Otherwise good ol' Guard looks great though I have lots already.... Strip Ball is somewhat appealing as he is a one Orc wrecking crew.... Pro... *shrug*... Break Tackle is a positive since he did get the St upgrade and hasn't doubled for Dodge yet.... Stand Firm/Thick Skull... for survivability? Dauntless/Frenzy...?

Lay your wisdom on me!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:14 am

Blitzer: He's +ST, MB and Tackle. Piling On, Frenzy or Pro would increase his chances of getting rid of opposing players. If you'll be playing many more games, these skills will also improve his rate of development. If not, then I'd say either Break Tackle (best vs. agility teams) or Dauntless (best if you expect to face many Big Guys). If you can't decide, go Frenzy, because it's more fun and more versatile than the others.

BOB: If he had Block, I'd say Side Step; the combination makes the player essentially impossible to push through and he really becomes something else as a linebacker. Since he doesn't, Block is the better choice (Side Step is still a barrel of green monkeys).

bouf · Post by **bouf** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:48 am

Borc = Sidestep, Jump up or Dtackle

Sidestep because SS + Guard is just funny!
Jump Up so he can get blocks Vs blokes who stand over him or have enough movement to reach a useful position when blokes don't stand over him
DTackle because evles think their funny

Blitzer = Frenzy

ST4, Block, MB, Tackle... Need I say more...

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:55 am

I'd not give the blitzer Piling On since he's a sucker to be fouled at every opportunity.

I'd probably take Frenzy since MA6, S4 Frenzy is very useful on any team. If not then perhaps Pro (for AG stuff) or Kick (which you don't appear to have).

For the BOB side step would be very very annoying to play against - because even if he gets knocked over you could still SS into the most annoying position to stand up and give assists

Also SS on a S4 player means people won't be as quick to try 1 or 2 dice against blocks because they'll fear the push result.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:14 pm

For the Blitzer, I'd go Frenzy for sure. If he was ST3 I would have chosen Piling-On. But at ST4, Frenzy. I would hate to face a ST4, MV6, Block, MB, Tackle, Frenzy player. Those opposing catchers are going to take a beating.

For the BoB, either Block or Side Step. If this is a short league, I would suggest Block as it will be more useful in the short term. If this is a long league, then Side Step. What you have to ask yourself now is what are the chances of him going to 31SPP to give him Block, and still have some games to play in the league so that you can use the three skills together.

Personally, as you have lots of players with Block and Guard, I would probably take Side Step. It's just way more fun. And Side Step is often a protection skill in itself. Lots of coaches will avoid hitting a Side Step player, especially if he has guard, block or dodge, just to avoid having the player side-step into an even better position to assist blocks. It's like a free move that ignores TZs.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:04 pm

On consideration, I'll amend my earlier post to echo Ian's comments. Frenzy is not only lots of fun, but it's really good (I wouldn't fault anyone for Pro). Side Step/Guard on a BOB is less-than-optimal either on the o-line (where Block/Guard is better) or as a linebacker (where Block/Side Step is better), but it makes him a great defensive end, and that's a hard position for an Orc team to cover (at least comparatively).

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:05 pm

Matt/Ian, ya'll ever notice how a doubles/stat increase NEVER comes when convienent?

Agreed with Matt that Block is definitely the better helper, but I won't throw away the doubles.... I like that DefEnd use, Matt... very interesting.... It's a tough decision in that Dodge would put the Blorc down 33% less times, but Sidestep would be useful 4 out of 6 times (per Ian's comment on placement)....

Agreed that Frenzy will make the Blitzer an OverBeast... I'm just always so chicken$#!* about getting into those overextended Frenzy possibilities and you can't turn off frenzy when it doesn't suit ya'.... Still, awfully compelling and it could be used to either break through a cage to put a tackle-tackle zone on the ball carrier or to actually hit the ball carrier....

Yes, very compelling....

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:34 pm

I'd go with Diving Tackle on the Black Orc, and Dodge on the Blitzer. ST4, Block and Dodge is awesome.

In the case of the Black Orc, put him on the edge. Makes a defense MUCH more solid, forcing the opponent around the other edge or up the middle, either of which is good for you.

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:50 am

sidestep (blackorc)
and
frenzy (blitzer).

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:05 am

Sorry Double Post

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:07 am

Diving Tackle on the BOB. For reasons already stated.

Frenzy on the Blitzer. Every team needs someone with Frenzy.
The other option (in my head anyways) would be Juggernaut unless there is no stand firm/wrestle/fend players in your league.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:51 am

Diving Tackle is another good DE skill.

Little secret with Orcs: run 4 corners, 2 guys in a column one square in from the sidelines; that means that the opponent always has to run a guy on the inside, increasing the value of your line and your linebackers. Putting a Side-Step linebacker just inside the wide zone, or two guys in a single column alongside (but not in the WZ) gives you the secondary bonus that cornerback durability is less important (since blitzing the corner gives your opponent no benefit, he won't get blitzed). However, the back-to-back strategy radically increases the value of Side Step on your defensive ends, who are conventionally BOBs anyway. Like anybody who sets up on the LOS, your DE players make good use of Guard, and now Side Step can be used to put him into positions that deny routes and force dodges, even if he goes down.

The O is the Guard/Side Step guy as a defensive end

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - O X X - -|- - - -
- X - -|X - - - - - X|- - X -
- X - -|X - - - - - X|- - X -

With Side Step Boy as a linebacker, it might look like this (again, Block/S-S would have been ideal here).

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - X X X - -|- - - -
- X - -|O - - - - - X|- - X -
- X - -|- X - - - - X|- - X -

That's why two of 'em is so cool. They come one at a time, though, and you can never rely on it. Got anyone else to hope on?

BTW, set up only one square back if you do this. Yeah yeah Quick Snap blah blah whatever, you want to get stuck in and if your opponent wastes a Quick Snap walking into your trap, it's his funeral. However, the one-square gap means your opponent will be forced to clog his own routes by knocking your guys down. Since you have a guy backing every guy up, he can't break a hole without serious freakin' commitment,and he'll have to leave you open for the blitz. Since you're only one back, you're more able to cope with an opponent's mistakes.

And NEVER use a BOB for a corner, even if he's got Side Step, unless he's got (at least) +MA.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:09 pm

mattgslater wrote:run 4 corners, 2 guys in a column one square in from the sidelines

The O is the Guard/Side Step guy as a defensive end
Code: Select all
- - - -|- - O X X - -|- - - -
- X - -|X - - - - - X|- - X -
- X - -|X - - - - - X|- - X -

That's just demonic...

... I like it!!!!

So, if you don't mind, Matt, would you take a look at the roster and tell me which players you would put in which positions for kicking and receiving?

Meradanis · Post by **Meradanis** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:11 pm

I've seen this setup often in my home league. I did use it for myself on quite a number of games.

I think there are 2 ways you can handle such a solid defence:
1. Just ignore it. Yeah, right, throw 3 Blocks at the line of scrimmage, make a Blitz Action, but don't advance any further into the opponents half. Most people don't know how react on such a strange behaviour, and start to move their people around. Et voilà, after another Blitz there's a high possibility of a gap in the defence.
2. If you don't have enough turns left, try to breack through the mid. You need to get rid of 2 players of the line of scrimmage and at least push the other one. Use your Blitz Action if you don't achieve this with your initial blocks. After doing so, flood your (hopefully) fast players into the opponents half and try to set up something like a cage.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:10 pm

diving tackle is great for blockers. Stops the fragile gits dodging away so often so either you hit them more, or they fall over i.e. turnover. I still think SS could be stand firm on a non doubles roll. not quite as good, but does mostly the same job without wasting a double.