LRB 5.0 Skaven, Rat Ogre on squad... :(

[Funksultan]

After winning the last league (go Chaos!), I decided to play a more challenging team, and opted for Skaven, especially since I happened to have a ton of the figs, primed and ready for paint.

I don't know why, but maybe because my Minotaur did so horribly last season, I decided to start with a Rat Ogre, in an attempt to make a big guy who was actually worth his salt. Also, since I'm sure I'll have a problem switching gears from a bashy team to a scoring team.

The starting lineup looks like this...

1 Thrower (looking for the quick leader)
2 Gutter Runners
2 Blitzers
5 Linerats
1 Rat Ogre

2 Rerolls
Apoth
1 FF

I know it looks like trouble, especially with 2 dwarf players, and a good mix of other early-bashy teams (norse, orcs, khemri, etc). Only 1 stunty player in the whole league, so I'm definitely on the most wanted list.

Looking for suggestions for both strat, and skill ups. My thoughts thus far (please, lemme know if I'm off base)...

Skills:
Linerats - Block (should I be thinking wrestle instead?)
Gutters - Block (love blodge), then maybe sprint, or sure hands to avoid strippers
Thrower - Leader, then accurate, etc.
Blitzers - Guard, mighty blow? Strip ball maybe?
Rat Ogre - Guard, then maybe break tackle...

As far as strategy, I just don't know when I should use the "3 token linerats on the line" technique. I searched, but didn't see a lot about when/how effective this is. When I'm recieving, that seems like my best chance to stack the LOS in my favor and get a lotta 2-die blocks, and try to even up some numbers. When kicking it makes sense, but still, how should I be getting to the ball and avoiding the opponent from caging up? I could use a lotta help here from people who have tried the rats, or seen them coached brilliantly. I'm worried I'm gonna slip into my old Chaos ways, and try to bash my way to victory...

Then, purchases... I was torn between taking an extra linerat or an apoth to start. I know I need more rats, but how many? Should that be my first priority, or should I be saving for a 3rd gutter runner, in preparation of bad things comin. When one is KOed or out for the game, just having one seems a little dicey. They focus on him kinda tight.

Thanks in advance, you dirty rats.

[Tante Kaethe]

Hi Funksultan,

here's a link to a very good Skave guide, even though its a bit outdated:

viewtopic.php?t=8994&start=0&postdays=0 ... highlight=

Main changes are with regard to Wild Animal, the new skills and that the Dauntless/Horns-combo no longer is as good as it used to be...

Other than that, I think Wrestle is a great skill for a couple of Linerats, as is Fend. And you should consider Juggernaut before Guard because if you invest 160.000 for this guy you should use him for blitzing!

Good luck

Tante Käthe

[Jonny Deth]

Hi there

I have used the guide from thge post above...It is excellent. Used the advice for a new Skaven team I had got in an established league and ruled big time...Also check out www.bbpb.de

I'd dump the Rat ogre as Skaven don't need the extra punch and it interfers with play...Never used one and no intention of doing so.

Keep the appo for the good players and sacrifice the line rats if they get injured...50k each is a steal...I have played with 4 journey rats with no ill effect!

Go for three gutter runners. One up each side of the pitch accompanied by the blitzer and one held back to offer assists.

Skills for linerats should be: Kick first...good for getting the ball down to the end zone of your opponent. Then block.

Skills for Gutter runners: sprint, sure feet, junp up, guard. They make good blodgers if you can get block on them!

Skills for Blitzers: MB, etc

Any passing skills for the thrower.

Watch your opponents face when a load of rats scamper on down his side of the field. Many of my opponents say "what quick little buggers they are!"

Have fun...

[Leipziger]

One your gutter runners are blodgers, strip ball is a good skill on one of them. Maybe pass block is worth having too?

Cheers

Leip

[Tante Kaethe]

If you'r planning to take Strip Ball on a Gutter Runner, take Wrestle instead of Block first: against a non-SH-player you'll have a 83%-chance with 1 dice and still a 70%-chance with 2dice-against to get the ball .

Cheers

Tante Käthe

[Funksultan]

So much good advice...

Ok, ok, so starting with the Rat Ogre was probably a mistake, and putting me at only 11 players and only 2 TRR is tough, but I'm gonna try to mash my way through it.

Blodge is huge on the runners imho. It makes them very difficult to stop, and with a little help, can even make them decent blitzers/scorers. Kinda like wrestle mixed with some defense. As many people have said, it's an automatic first skill if you can get it. The big plus of strip ball is to make a blitzing, scoring runner. He has enough movement and the agility to blitz, push back (knocking the ball loose), then pick up, dodge out, and score in one action (with the dice and fates cooperating).

I'm a little unsure about kick... getting it deep into my opponents zone is nice, but since I'm kicking, I've already conceded the LOS (3 rats, some possibly gimpy) so I'm pretty far back from making a rush into his zone, especially with him getting the first turn, which he'll surely use to crush my 3 rats, then run forward to put TZ on the majority of the rest of my players. If I could elf it, and dodge out and swarm around, it'd be different, but as is, it sounds like I'm just gonna lose the LOS, and be outta position for any decent blocking chances.

I know I'm being a wuss, but man, if you put a buncha AV7 guys without block in front of most teams, they are gonna throw more blocks than Paris Hilton at a comic book convention.

D

[PubBowler]

A couple of Gutter Runners (one in either wide zone) two squares back gives you an excellent chance for a blitz (especially with Kick). Or rushing a cage before it can get into it's stride.

They have AG4 and Dodge, who needs elves...

[Funksultan]

I could see that with kick and a GR just a little off the line, but so then what's the plan? Should you try a 2-die against blitz? Good chance of bad things happening there... and if it fails, he's likely to squash that GR, and then you're kinda back to square one.

I know it's all part of the grand "keep the pressure on" plan, but it still feels really dangerous. I mean, with a str 3 blodging GR, it's a whole different ballgame, but that's just not likely to happen.

[wesleytj]

After winning the last league (go Chaos!), I decided to play a more challenging team, and opted for Skaven, especially since I happened to have a ton of the figs, primed and ready for paint.

Nobody else has said it, so I will....

You think Skaven are more challenging than Chaos?!?!

[rodders]

I'd drop the expensive turn over machine for two more Gr's that would win you more games

[Funksultan]

Again, the team is already made, and I have to play it as is, so I'm just gonna have to make the Rat Ogre work... somehow.

Oh, Skaven is definitely more challenging than Chaos. Without thick armor, strong guys, and more 2-die blocks than you can shake a stick at, I actually have to use strategy.

I don't think scoring is gonna be too difficult... I'm just more concerned as how to do it without getting all my little guys stomped into goo.

[Cramy]

Playing rats is always dangerous, that's why the linos are so cheap. But they are also very useful with AG3 and MA7.

My advice:

Drop the Rat Ogre. Get him later. He is too expensive, and a liability on a new team. Max-out on the GRs.

The Linerats are to be used to put TZs on important opponents. They protect the GRs, by putting TZs on opposing blitzers and other dangerous dudes. They will get smacked, but they get back up and put a TZ again. They will get injured alot some games, but you will be amazed on how resilient they are. And if you play your GRs right, your opponent will be too busy doing risky plays to get to your GRs and will often not even get around to hitting your linos.

Skills:
Linerats: First skill is Kick. Skaven and Wood Elves are the two teams who benefit the most from this skill. You kick deep, then put pressure on the ball retriever before he cages-up. If nothing else, you can slow down the cage from forming, hence not allowing for enough time for your opponent to score. Next skill is block. Again, these guys are used to mark your opponent, and block will help with that. I would not give these guys fend. They are there to put TZ on people, not to stay away from them.
Blitzers: Tackle and Guard are the first skills for these guys. Which one you pick first depends on your league. Doubles: Horns I like a lot. Great for punching holes.
Thrower: leader is good, so is block depending on your reroll situation. I use my thrower as a glorified line rat. He gets in the thick of things when needed. When you think you can get the ball lose, he can be used to pick-up the ball if there are no GRs available to do so. In my team, he is more of a defensive specialist.
GRs: These are, obviously, the stars of the team. Two get block then side step. These guys are great on offence and on defence. They will quickly become the most hated players around. One gets wrestle and strip ball. Then leap if you can. He's the one who blitzes the ball carrier. Keep a reroll around, block with two dice opponent choses. All you have to do is not roll a skull, and the ball is lose. Works way more often than you would think. Although don't go jumping around in cages all the time. Make sure that you have somebody around to pick-up the lose ball. The fourth GR: I like Big Hand and leap, and also Two Heads if you get a second double. Once the ball is lose, you can leap in, pick-up on a 2+, then dodge out and pass to a blodging sidestepper standing close-by.
Rat Ogre: Juggernaut and Break Tackle. A smart opponent will mark him with line fodder. Break Tackle allows you to get him out of there and use frenzy with juggernaut to crowd surf, destroy a cage, or whatever else. Prehensile Tail is golden against dodgers, so just standing next to the ball carrier while avoiding 1 or 2 dice blocks against him is pretty nasty.

Blocking: With rats, I block only when there is a tactical advantage to do so. Usually this means punching a hole such that my GRs can get through. This means that rerolls are rarely used on blocks. Don't start a blocking war unless you are playing WE or Elves. You mention that you want to go toe-to-toe with Orcs and other meanies. Well, I wouldn't. If you do, let us know how it went.

Scoring: GRs can easily score in two turns. One GR stays back as ball retriever, the 3 others can flood one side of the field. However you do it, it's easy to score (usually). But try not to score too quickly. The key to beat Skaven is to manage the clock. If you can, take time to score. Obviously you will not be able to hold-on for 8 turns, but try to take 3-4 turns to score. Then with the kick skill and your GRs applying pressure, it will be very hard for your opponent to score in 4 turns.

Defence: The most difficult part with Skaven IMO. With the kick skill (did I mention that this is the most important skill for you team ), kick deep. Apply pressure with GRs and Blitzers. Your opponent needs to take care of the blitzers as they have block and are ST3 (with Horns if possible), which may leave a couple of GRs a bit more free. Try to pop the ball lose. With the above skills on your GRs and Blitzers, it will happen fairly often. If your opponent manages to cage-up, then you can either stall the cage, which could mangle your linerats, but often works. And if you lose some rats, who cares. They are cheap, and you get journeymen for you next game, which are excellent on the LoS. Just don't get attached to your linerats. Always keep a GR in scoring position. Wait for the opportune moment to attack the cage, using a combination of Horns blitzer, blodging sidestep GRs, wrestle strip ball GR, and if you knock the ball lose, get the leaping Big Hand GR to grab the ball and get it out of there. You can even just throw the ball as far as you can without fumbling. You have a good chance of getting to the ball before your opponent does in you next turn if you are positioned right (with the GR in scoring position).

Rat Ogre: Good purchase, a bit later. He is good, just too expensive on the starting lineup IMO. He is there to crowd-surf people, to break cages, and to put his tail on opposing ball carriers with dodge. He is a bit fragile and it can be hard to provide support for him, so be careful that he doesn't end-up in the middle of a bunch of Claw/MB Chaos Warriors or the likes of them.

Well, that's how I play them. High risk high reward GR plays. Keeps your opponents on their toes, makes them get off their game plans, and causes havoc and turnovers. And its darn fun

I also find it interesting that you are saying that Skaven will more of a challenge to win with than Chaos. Chaos are quite hard to play with early-on. They take many games to beome decent at anything. Skaven are scoring machines. IMO, it is much easier to win with Skaven than it is with Chaos.

But to win, you have to play the Skaven way. If you play the Chaos/Orc way, then your team will become pitch fertilizer.

Hope this helps. And good luck.

[Frankus Macimus]

After winning the last league (go Chaos!), I decided to play a more challenging team, and opted for Skaven, especially since I happened to have a ton of the figs, primed and ready for paint.

Nobody else has said it, so I will....

You think Skaven are more challenging than Chaos?!?!

You have to understand, FunkSultan was the lucky git who got 2 Chaos Warriors with AG upgrades. When you have guys that strong, that tough, and that agile, it makes all teams easy.

[datalorex]

After winning the last league (go Chaos!), I decided to play a more challenging team, and opted for Skaven, especially since I happened to have a ton of the figs, primed and ready for paint.

Nobody else has said it, so I will....

You think Skaven are more challenging than Chaos?!?!

That's what I was thinking!

[PubBowler]

I could see that with kick and a GR just a little off the line, but so then what's the plan? Should you try a 2-die against blitz? Good chance of bad things happening there... and if it fails, he's likely to squash that GR, and then you're kinda back to square one.

Not that likely, and even if the Runner goes down he's still likely to be fast enough to get up run back and try it all over again.

Pressure on the opponent is key.