Khemri -- Theoretical LRB7 discussion

Alamar · Post by **Alamar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:32 pm

From my understanding there won't be any roster or rule changes to Khemri that haven't already been playtested. However listening to many people here it seems that not a ton of people LOVE either of the Khemri options given and they aren't sure that they'll be fun and/or win enough to be Tier 1.

I'd like to discuss two basic things:

-- What you consider to be the problems with Khemri
-- What you would do to fix them.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:37 pm

I don't thnk there is a problem with Khemri, so personally I think the LRB5 roster should be kept "as is".

However, IF a change is needed, one of the following should happen.

1. Mummies stay the same, but go 0-2, and Blitzers should go to 0-4.

or

2. Mummies stay the same and go 0-2, and 0-2 Tomb Guardians are added 4/5/1/8 Break Tackle, S GAP (same price as mummies [which I forget off the top of my head]).

Alamar · Post by **Alamar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:03 pm

I've played 20+ games with the new Khemri. I'm not an expert at all but I'm starting to get a feel for weakness in the team.

Problems with Khemri:

-- Tomb Guardians really only skill up by MVPs and CAS. This means they need to block a lot but they are likely never to be skillful blockers.

-- The other team positionals cost too much for what they do COMPARED to other similar positionals on other teams. [They have lower AG and sometimes AV or MV compared to other similar positionals]

-- The team is too dependant on expensive Team Rerolls early.

-- For a bashy team Khemri does not have many protections that you'd like [Block, high AV, etc.]

-- Tomb Guardians are too easy to "kill" for a 100K model.

-- Keeping players on the pitch is a chore

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Possible solutionts to the above:

-- TGs NEED to block but aren't skillful. Also because they can be killed easily they need more out-of-the-gate skills. Adding a block-related skill seems like a good move. I think adding Tackle would make TGs better without making them overwhelming. This skill is only useful in helping them get more blocks [fewer dodge away] and it would be useful in knocking down the odd War Dancer [if you can get to them] to pop out the ball.

IMHO most of the other block skills would be too powerful. Mighty Blow was tried and was too disruptive. Block is RIGHT OUT. Dodge, Claw, Frenzy don't seem in character or would cause more problems. Tackle seems like the only reasonable choice IMHO ....

Something like 4519 Decay, Regeneration, Tackle and 110K costs would be decent.

-- To BOTH keep players on the pitch more AND help the cost of positionals I would recommend giving them THICK SKULL. This will keep them on the field a little more and makes them more competitive compared to their higher AG [and MV and AV] cousins. I'm thinking Blitz-Ras and Thro-Ras [not TGs]. Just give them the skill but keep their other stats, skills, and costs the same.

-- 60K rerolls would help several things. Getting a 3rd reroll looks like an attractive option, you could keep players on the pitch if you have more RRs to redo failed blocks, ....

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I think some set of the above proposals could make Khemri more effective and get them into the lower parts of Tier 1. This would also make the team more fun to play because you stand a better chance to win early [which may be why folks abandon the team?] and the team is slightly more effective and less likely to get blown off the pitch.

On the other hand ALL of the above likely wouldn't be needed. If Khemri need an ever-so-slight boost then a nearly team-wide Thick Skull may not be bad. If it's found that they only suffer "too much" from AG teams then adding more Tackle wouldn't be bad.

Heck there are likely DOZENS of other ways you could help Khemri without destroying the team image, balance, function, etc.

Alamar · Post by **Alamar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:14 pm

Darkson wrote:I don't thnk there is a problem with Khemri, so personally I think the LRB5 roster should be kept "as is".

However, IF a change is needed, one of the following should happen.

1. Mummies stay the same, but go 0-2, and Blitzers should go to 0-4.

or

2. Mummies stay the same and go 0-2, and 0-2 Tomb Guardians are added 4/5/1/8 Break Tackle, S GAP (same price as mummies [which I forget off the top of my head]).

***********************************************************

IF I understand the powers that be it was decided that there needed to be a change from the LRB 5.0 roster. While I could be wrong I do seem to recall a lot of CAS with the team and it being too disruptive to other teams.

As for your changes I'd rather keep the same positionals and numbers of positionals but would prefer to tweak what they do. I won't argue that you changes could lead to a better team but I like the flavor that we have now ... I would just like to see tweaks made in how effective that flavor is ....

Devil's Advocate: The other players in my league would love to see no more than 2 STR 5 guys on my team

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:50 pm

Giving Tomb Guardians Stand Firm and/or Thick Skull would be a good start.

Or, failing that, Wrestle would help keep them alive without giving them a SPP boost. The fact they'd also have to stand up again afterwards would make it a doubled edged sword, but one that would improve the survivablity of the players dramatically.

Oh, and maybe a small price hike. 120k? Would considering dropping them back down to MA3 as well, and put them firmly back into the 'blocker' role.

I'd make Throw-Ra's S2 and AG3 as well. Throw Khemri a bone (or in this case, let them throw it) and let them actually play the game!

I'd be tempted to make Blitz-Ra's 0-4 as well, but this may be too much. But they should really get Thick Skull like their normal Skeleton counterparts, right (but not Throw-Ras, they are a bit weedier)?

----------------------

So, follow this train of thought (with the ideas that I think would be best):

0-4 Tomb Guardians (120k) - MA3 ST5 AG1 AV8, Wrestle, Thick Skull, Regenerate, Decay

0-2 Blitz-Ras (90k) - MA6 S3 AG2 AV8, Block, Regenerate, Thick Skull

0-2 Throw-Ras (70k) - MA6 S2 AG3 AV7, Sure Hands, Pass, Regenerate

0-16 Skeletons (40k) - MA5 S3 AG2 AV7, Regenerate, Thick Skull

~Andromidius

Alamar · Post by **Alamar** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:23 pm

Andromidius wrote: So, follow this train of thought (with the ideas that I think would be best):

0-4 Tomb Guardians (120k) - MA3 ST5 AG1 AV8, Wrestle, Thick Skull, Regenerate, Decay

0-2 Blitz-Ras (90k) - MA6 S3 AG2 AV8, Block, Regenerate, Thick Skull

0-2 Throw-Ras (70k) - MA6 S2 AG3 AV7, Sure Hands, Pass, Regenerate

0-16 Skeletons (40k) - MA5 S3 AG2 AV7, Regenerate, Thick Skull

Did you make any mistakes with the above??

-- Current TGs have 4519 Decay and Thick Skull. Your proposal takes away 1MV, 1AV, increases costs 20K and only gives TGs Thick Skull & Wrestle. My problems with this are that I think the TGs would cost too much and I think that even with Wrestle "DECAY + AV8" wouldn't be a good pairing.

If you took away Decay then I would be more inclined to consider the AV8 TG.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:58 pm

I thought that Tomb Guardians were getting AV8 and Decay as par the course. But AV9 would be fine in my roster as well.

Otherwise, no. No mistakes. Wrestle would improve their survivability a great deal, especially considering it would be a doubles skill for them.

~Andromidius

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:03 pm

Didn't think I'd say this, but given the weakness of the khemri versions, I really love the AG3 ST2 thrower!

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:50 pm

For me I'd be thinking either Av9 & Decay OR Av8. I'd not go Av8 & Decay.

With hindsight I think Av8 is probably better primary because of the psychological impact of Decay - I was only Badly hurt and then I died!

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:07 pm

Alamar wrote:IF I understand the powers that be it was decided that there needed to be a change from the LRB 5.0 roster.

[snip]

Hey, you asked what I'd do.

I believe the powers-that-be are completely wrong, as do many players I've spoken to (though I have to say many also thought there was a problem). LRB5 roster is fine, there is no problem with it, and will continue to be used here regardless of what crap roster gets put in LRB6.

Alamar · Post by **Alamar** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 am

Darkson wrote:
Alamar wrote:IF I understand the powers that be it was decided that there needed to be a change from the LRB 5.0 roster.

[snip]
Hey, you asked what I'd do. I believe the powers-that-be are completely wrong, as do many players I've spoken to (though I have to say many also thought there was a problem). LRB5 roster is fine, there is no problem with it, and will continue to be used here regardless of what crap roster gets put in LRB6.

FYI: No flames were intended.

To clear things up I don't "hate" the current version of Khemri. I think they do have some correctable problems and was just looking for general ideas that could fix them up [preferably while maintaining their flavor].

Devil's Advocate: If you can get enough games in to get a TV advantage on 2/3 of your opponnents then Khemri can become a legit threat.

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:13 pm

I have no problems with the current khemri (decay etc) as it still leaves me 4 reliable (ie no game effecting negatraits) players at MA4 to mess around with and people so far have had problems dealing with that, even treemen have spent most their time lying on the floor facing me.
only problem khemri have is picking up the ball but even thats 50% and as long as the dice are not totally against you then you should get it. hell i even have a completion on one throw ra and have had skeles and blitz-ras dodging when needed.

ok my team is currently only 1/2/2 but this is mainly as I am used to playing elves so I am only just learning to play bashy but even that should be 2/1/2 due to me spending 6 turns failing to pick up the ball. the team has 14 cas in 5 games and 4 TDs so not doing too badly.

I have 4 TG (2 with block and one of those also with mighty blow), 2 Blitz-ras (one with dodge, one with +1MA), 2 throw ras and 6 skeles (4 of which have spps through cas, TDs or an MVP) and a TV of 1,350,000.