Slann development question

[Smeborg]

If you strip out the details of the individual case, I think my question boils down to: "Can the Slann do well without Tackle?"

I am relatively inexperienced with Slann, I run a simple low TV system without Blitzers, and without the Krox. My team, Pond Scum, has made a bright start to our tabletop league, despite the early retirement of a Catcher with 5 SPPs. Here it is after 6 games (4 wins, 2 draws):

Catcher: +AG, Dodge (30 SPPs)
Catcher: Dodge (12)
Catcher: Dodge (10)
Catcher: Dodge (7)
Linefrog: Wrestle, Strip Ball (17)
Linefrog: Guard (11)
Linefrog: Wrestle (10)
Linefrog: Guard (7)
Linefrog: Wrestle (7) MNG
4 rookie Linefrogs (0)
5 Re-rolls
FF: 4
Apoth
TV: 138 (146 if the MNG Linefrog returns)

The league is semi-scheduled, I expect to play about 20 games in all, against 20 different opponents. The league is more bashy than dashy, but one of the key opponents I have yet to play against is a pro-Elf team with horrible stats (2x+ST, 2x+AG). MVP is chosen, so far I have given all the MVPs to Linefrogs, a policy I expect to continue, as the Catchers seem to skill up just fine by themselves. The AG5 Catcher is rather nice, he is the team Thrower on offense. The 2 Guard Linefrogs are handy, too, they allow the team to lay down quite a lot more blocks. It also seems to me that the team takes a step up once all the Catchers have Dodge.

Only one Linefrog has reached 2 skills (Wrestle, S-Ball). I expect to give Wrestle to the 2 Guard Linefrogs as their second skill. I also expect to give Kick to the next Wrestle Linefrog who reaches his second skill-up. This gives me the 4 Linefrogs who will stay off the LoS on defense, therefore the 5th and subsequent Linefrogs to skill up will probably get Fend (after Wrestle). The future line-up of Linefroggies therefore becomes:

Wrestle, S-Ball
Wrestle, Guard
Wrestle, Guard
Wrestle, Kick
---------------------
Wrestle, Fend
Wrestle, Fend
Wrestle, Fend
---------------------
Wrestle, ? (replaces Kicker on offense)

I often work backwards in this way, from the 8 players who stay off the LoS on defense. While the future team looks fine on paper, it lacks Tackle. This seems a weakness to me. There is also a secondary question (much less important) as to whether I should take Dauntless at some point (maybe this is unnecessary with 2 or more Guards). I don't want to put Guarders on the defensive LoS, they are too precious. Perhaps I should have taken Tackle instead of S-Ball, but it's too late to reverse that.

Let me know your experience with Slann and Tackle, and whether (and how) you think I should take Tackle. Bear in mind it will likely be a long time, if ever, before any Linefrog gets to his 3rd skill.

All the best.

[Shteve0]

I should probably not be jumping in this early since I've never played Slann, but I'll likely be fielding them in our second league this year (from Aug/Sept) inspired by your success in the Greenstone. As such, I'll be keeping an eye on this for sure

One question I have, and apologies for potential derailment: why wrestle on the guard linemen as opposed to block? I would have thought they were the players you want to lay down the least, both for taking advantage of the guard and limiting their potential to fall victim to a foul.

I guess I can see the logic if you're warding off blocks from ball carriers and trying to limit attempted blocks against, I guess... but just wondering on the thought process.

Cheers!

[Smeborg]

One question I have, and apologies for potential derailment: why wrestle on the guard linemen as opposed to block? I would have thought they were the players you want to lay down the least, both for taking advantage of the guard and limiting their potential to fall victim to a foul.

Hi Steve. Simple answer: I find Slann need as many players as possible capable of leaping into the cage and taking down the ball carrier. Since this is not the job of the ST2 Catchers (I give them Blodge anyway), and the Froggies on the defensive LoS cannot be relied upon to remain on the pitch, it falls on the shoulders of the 4 remaining defenders. Were I to give Block to the 2 Guard players, that would leave only 2 "reliable" sackers, 1 of whom could be taken out by the opponent's first blitz. The other could then be targetted, leaving my defense with no good threat. Ball hunting is what Slann do on defense.

In the past, when I took Blitzers on the Slann team, I gave them Wrestle (so does Galak).

I understand the synergy between Guard and Block, I combine them on all other teams, but Slann are the exception IMO.

All the best.

[Shteve0]

Cool, understood, thanks

Follow up question - you've outlined 8 linefrog builds up there, implying a short bench (of 1). What are you targetting for your optimal build? Will you add more up to 16 if/when you can afford it, given the bash focus of your environment and the likelihood of MNGs, or are you planning on keeping numbers down to manage TV vs what you can field?

Cheers

[Darkson]

I understand no Blitzers in a tourney build, but why not in a league setting?
Same question on the Krox.

[Ullis]

I like aiming to build linefrogs with Wrestle, Stripball and Tackle. The first linefrog to hit two skills gets Strip Ball and then the next get Tackle. Those frogs will get hit a lot and go splat on their faces so you need to keep training replacements continuously. They'll also pull los duty due to Wrestle when you're down players.

But I'd never give Guard linefrogs Wrestle. It's just that bad a combination and every team should have someone with Block for blitzing and los hits. If you must give everyone Wrestle, then don't bother with Guard in the first place and give them Dodge instead. Leaping into a cage first with an AG3 Guard for an assist gives you worse odds than going right in with a 1d and also is much more guaranteed to eat a reroll in the first place.

[Smeborg]

Follow up question - you've outlined 8 linefrog builds up there, implying a short bench (of 1). What are you targetting for your optimal build? Will you add more up to 16 if/when you can afford it, given the bash focus of your environment and the likelihood of MNGs, or are you planning on keeping numbers down to manage TV vs what you can field?

I plan on 14 players, 5 RRs and 1AC/1CL for an underlying TV of 124. Rather nice and lean, I feel.

[Smeborg]

I understand no Blitzers in a tourney build, but why not in a league setting?
Same question on the Krox.

Mainly for TV efficiency (see above post). I feel the Blitzers, in particular, are among the least cost-effective players in the game. Each of their skills are good, but they do not often combine well, they start without Block, and are very expensive. Linefrog + RR = 1 Blitzer. I think the former is much better.

A secondary, but important, consideration, is that the Krox and the Blitzers are built for staying in contact. I feel this runs against the grain of the team, who excel at staying out of contact, except at a time and place of their choosing.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

I like aiming to build linefrogs with Wrestle, Stripball and Tackle. The first linefrog to hit two skills gets Strip Ball and then the next get Tackle. Those frogs will get hit a lot and go splat on their faces so you need to keep training replacements continuously. They'll also pull los duty due to Wrestle when you're down players.

That's exactly my plan, too, but I ask my question because Guard has intervened.

But I'd never give Guard linefrogs Wrestle. It's just that bad a combination and every team should have someone with Block for blitzing and los hits. If you must give everyone Wrestle, then don't bother with Guard in the first place and give them Dodge instead. Leaping into a cage first with an AG3 Guard for an assist gives you worse odds than going right in with a 1d and also is much more guaranteed to eat a reroll in the first place.

Well, I will certainly give your thinking consideration before I give Wrestle to the Guard players. However, I find them very handy already without Block or Wrestle, and Guard+Wrestle has to be better than Guard alone. I like the idea of Wrestle on every Linefrog, regardless of other skills, I think it's how Slann play. As stated above, I think this is the one team on which the combo Wrestle+Guard may be viable. Lots of Wrestle also makes blitzing more hazardous for the opponent.

All the best.

[Sandwich]

Normally I'd agree that guard+wrestle isn't a great combination and block is better.

But thinking about it, I can see it working... generally speaking, you move the guard players in your turn, then block with other players. In your opponents turn he may (will!) hit the guards, when wrestle will potentially keep them safe, then they can get back up and move again... so guard keeps them useful for support, and wrestle is very much defensive. Fend next?

I would suggest tackle as a 3rd skill on most of the line-frogs would be an idea... wrestle, strip ball, tackle is good. wrestle + kick suggests backfield, so tackle good for 3rd skill there too.

As for blitzers... not sold on them. I started my team on FUMBBL with 3, and 2 catchers... and it was probably a mistake (11 games in, 2 of them have 2 skills, one had 1 skill but died... though team development was seriously stunted by both catchers dying in game 1 )

[Darkson]

But thinking about it, I can see it working... generally speaking, you move the guard players in your turn, then block with other players. In your opponents turn he may (will!) hit the guards, when wrestle will potentially keep them safe, then they can get back up and move again... so guard keeps them useful for support, and wrestle is very much defensive. Fend next?

Wrestle keeps them no safer than Block when receiving hits, and puts them on the floor to be fouled.
While I see the attraction of Wrestle over Block on Slann, I think if they have Guard, they need to take Block.

All imo of course (which with my win/loss record probably isn't worth much! )

[Smeborg]

Fend next?

Yes, that's the idea.

[Sandwich]

But thinking about it, I can see it working... generally speaking, you move the guard players in your turn, then block with other players. In your opponents turn he may (will!) hit the guards, when wrestle will potentially keep them safe, then they can get back up and move again... so guard keeps them useful for support, and wrestle is very much defensive. Fend next?

Wrestle keeps them no safer than Block when receiving hits, and puts them on the floor to be fouled.
While I see the attraction of Wrestle over Block on Slann, I think if they have Guard, they need to take Block.

All imo of course (which with my win/loss record probably isn't worth much! )

Keeps them no safer... but is more annoying for the opponent. Not saying its what I'd do.... but if they had wrestle first and rolled a double 2nd I'd give them guard without hesitation (if they got guard first, I'd probably still go with block). Of course, my record with slann shows it doesn't matter what skill they get first, they still die

A quick look at the NAF rankings puts your opinion above mine

[Smeborg]

Wrestle keeps them no safer than Block when receiving hits, and puts them on the floor to be fouled.

Not necessarily true, as in my experience opponents (especially bash teams) will often take a push result over a both down against a Wrestle player. This is especially the case when they take a blitz action. Even if a both down result is taken, with the intention of fouling, one assist has been removed.

I am open-minded as to whether Block or Wrestle is better, but my intuition (based on my limited experience with Slann) suggests that Wrestle ought to be better. So in the absence of better arguments from y'all, I look likely to pioneer the experiment with Wrestle...

I was hoping to hear from at least one brave soul who had tried Wrestle+Guard, at least on the Blitzers.

All the best.

[Darkson]

Not necessarily true, as in my experience opponents (especially bash teams) will often take a push result over a both down against a Wrestle player. This is especially the case when they take a blitz action. Even if a both down result is taken, with the intention of fouling, one assist has been removed.

I'm obviously missing something, but if they've taken Block (instead of Wrestle), then the Both Down surely leaves the Guarder standing, so no foul attempt at all. If they take Wrestle, the Both Down means they're lying on the floor ready for a kicking.

Surely "no foul attempt" is safer than "a foul attempt", even if wrestle has taken one assist away?