Help! I'm playing terribly...

Want to know how to beat your opponents, then get advice, or give advice here.

Moderators: Valen, TFF Mods

martynq
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 11:21 am
Location: Cupar, Fife, Scotland

Help! I'm playing terribly...

Post by martynq »

OK, rather a general subject, but it adequately summarizes the situation I'm in.

(1) I seem to play very badly in terms of positional play. I always seem to have the wrong players in the wrong place. I wish I could be more precise... it's taken me this long to realize that positional tactics seems to be the problem.

(2) I suffer turnovers often when I've not moved all my players who could have free moves. The trouble is that I often need to move people who need to make rolls so as to create the space for the safe moves to be made. (I think this relates to problem (1).)

(3) I have no idea how to deal with my opponent having a big guy. I haven't rolled a double on the appropriate players so I can take Dauntless, and I often choose to play dark elves, so can't take a big guy myself.

(4) I'm just rubbish sometimes! :wink:

(5) Help! :cry:

Martyn

Reason: ''
Dark Elf Blitzer 8/3/4/8 Block, Dodge, MA+1, Shadowing, Side Step, Tackle
User avatar
Asmodan
Legend
Legend
Posts: 4190
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:59 pm
Location: Norway

Post by Asmodan »

1.That has never stopped me as i often end up blocking with my catchers and scoring with my linemen.
You just have to get creative sometimes when it comes to positional play.
Note! creative is also sometimes called "lucky"

2. Always expect to roll a 1 on your next roll, if you play elves expect to roll 1 on EVERY roll

3. Either A) keep him busy with a blodger or B) Get your elven a** away from him or C) Try to convince him that there is a halfling in the crowd waiting for him to be eaten.

4. If thats true i want to meet you for my next match in MBBL :D

5. Off course i will help you, just wait until i win with my wood elves :roll:

Asmodan

Reason: ''
User avatar
phil
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Tampa, Lustria
Contact:

Post by phil »

you probably have to do what i did back when i couldn't find my ass with both hands and a flashlight (though, i'd argue i'm still crap, but at least i usually manage to look like it's just bad die rolls that keep me down, but hey, my team always _looks good_)... play a team that helps to compensate for your weakness...

if positioning and movement is your problem, play skaven. sure, wood elves are just as fast and have better agility, but skaven are more disposable... that 7 MA makes up for a lot of mistakes in position, and i found that it really helped me get better at anticipating once i was able to react more effectively...

there really is no cure for bad rolls, but the human team at least has enough player rerolls at skill positions to keep you from burning oout your tema rerolls too fast...

Reason: ''
www.lplbb.com - The Lustrian Premier League
martynq
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 11:21 am
Location: Cupar, Fife, Scotland

Post by martynq »

The problem with that suggestion is that I only own dark elf, chaos, and goblin figures. As it is, the problem seems to manifest itself most in PBEM where plenty of coaches are much better than me, though if I were ever to have the time to attend a tournament, I'm sure I'd have the same problem.

I was hoping someone had some advice on improving positional play.

The keeping away from big guys sounds like a good idea, but sadly they often have too high movement. Phil's minotaur has caused three casualties in five turns, and one of those five I moved all my players as far away from the minotaur as possible, so that he would have to go for it to blitz.

Martyn

Reason: ''
Dark Elf Blitzer 8/3/4/8 Block, Dodge, MA+1, Shadowing, Side Step, Tackle
User avatar
phil
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Tampa, Lustria
Contact:

Post by phil »

to be fair, the minotaur is just rolling great this game... you should have seen those cows against woody, they couldn't get off their butts...

in my experience, though, the best way to handle the big guys is actually to swarm them... especially early in a league like this, there's not a lot of players with guard (and wild animals can't benefit from it anyway) so make them throw a lot of 1-die blocks... sometimes i even sacrifice a lowly lineman to a big guy just to keep him from getting into my plans... park the poor schmeckle next to the big guy at every opportunity, their agility is too low to dodge out, so they have to either smack the guy they don't want to hit or risk getting away... either way, your plans go unimpeded...

Reason: ''
www.lplbb.com - The Lustrian Premier League
User avatar
DoubleSkulls
Da Admin
Posts: 8219
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Back in the UK
Contact:

Re: Help! I'm playing terribly...

Post by DoubleSkulls »

martynq wrote:(1) I seem to play very badly in terms of positional play. I always seem to have the wrong players in the wrong place. I wish I could be more precise... it's taken me this long to realize that positional tactics seems to be the problem.
Well at least you've recognised the problem. Now is it because you a putting players in the wrong place or your opponents are dragging them out of position?
martynq wrote:(2) I suffer turnovers often when I've not moved all my players who could have free moves. The trouble is that I often need to move people who need to make rolls so as to create the space for the safe moves to be made. (I think this relates to problem (1).)
Its a easy one to let slide. Discipline and strength of will are the answers. Make your free moves first - to protect from turnovers later on. Don't go on about how much better position you could have been in if you'd known it would work. Rely on being in a better position when it goes wrong.
martynq wrote:(3) I have no idea how to deal with my opponent having a big guy. I haven't rolled a double on the appropriate players so I can take Dauntless, and I often choose to play dark elves, so can't take a big guy myself.
The best way is to stay out of their way. Just don't end up letting them do anything other than wander around. You should be mobile enough to avoid them while still putting pressure where you need to. If that fails Block, Dodge & Sidestep tend to work wonders. Not too many big guys have tackle so dodge should help keep you alive. Av8 helps too. If you can, foul the b*gger should he fall over.

Reason: ''
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
martynq
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 11:21 am
Location: Cupar, Fife, Scotland

Re: Help! I'm playing terribly...

Post by martynq »

ianwilliams wrote:
martynq wrote:(1) I seem to play very badly in terms of positional play.
Well at least you've recognised the problem. Now is it because you a putting players in the wrong place or your opponents are dragging them out of position?
Erm, I think the problem is that I am putting them in the wrong place... or more precisely that what I think are the right places turn out not to be.
martynq wrote:(2) I suffer turnovers often when I've not moved all my players who could have free moves.
Its a easy one to let slide. Discipline and strength of will are the answers. Make your free moves first - to protect from turnovers later on. Don't go on about how much better position you could have been in if you'd known it would work. Rely on being in a better position when it goes wrong.
OK. So I should always move the free players first no matter what else is happening?

Martyn

Reason: ''
Dark Elf Blitzer 8/3/4/8 Block, Dodge, MA+1, Shadowing, Side Step, Tackle
User avatar
roysorlie
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:12 pm
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Post by roysorlie »

Ok, some general howtodo with darkelves.

Firstly, there are two main strategies that work for most people.
The deep rush, and the stay deep. (as I like to call them)

The deep rush mainly consists of using your blitzers/which elves to punch a hole on one of the sidelines. Swarm that area with as many players as you can manage, and give the ball to a blitzer, who's protected with so many tackle zones, that your opponent can't reach him, at least not easily.

When, in his turn, he's added a lot of tackle zones, blitz your way free, and go for the TD.

Staying deep, basically involves keeping back your thrower, while you swarm our opponents half with as many players as you can. Your opponent will have to try to put as many tackle zones as possible on them in his turn. Chances are at least one of them will be able to break free. Blitz a hole for one of your guys, get the thrower in, pass the ball and go in for a td.

Whichever of these to basic tactics you choose to use (and i stress the fact that they are basic, and have a lot of room for personal improvement, and fine tuning), you should always plan for the worst. Always expect your opponent to get very lucky, at the same time you get unlucky. After all your free and easy moves are made, get your lineelves away from the opposition. Try to never let your opponent get more than one block every turn, his blitz.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make sure that all your blitzers could potesionally go score. You should try not to base your tactics on a key player, as your opponent will realize this, and try to take him out.

Follow theese basic suggestions, and you should do alright. Elves are infinetly versatile, you should capitalize on that fact. After all, your basic lineelf makes a better scorer than most teams dedicated scorer.

Cheers

Reason: ''
Roy

Norwegian National Tournament Organizer.

Coachname [url=http://fumbbl.com/~SnakeEyes]SnakeEyes[/url] on [url=http://fumbbl.com/]fumbbl.com[/url]
NAF member 187
Skummy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 4567
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:48 pm
Location: Camping on private island, per BBRC advice.

Post by Skummy »

martynq: OK. So I should always move the free players first no matter what else is happening?
This is a tougher question to answer. If you have a risk free action like moving a reciever downfield or putting a tackle zone on the ball before having your thrower attempt to pick it up, then yes you should do this first. I find that the real trick of the game is prioritizing your actions by necessity and risk.

Reason: ''
[url=http://www.bloodbowl.net/naf.php?page=tournamentinfo&uname=skummy]Skummy's Tourney History[/url]
martynq
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 11:21 am
Location: Cupar, Fife, Scotland

Post by martynq »

Skummy wrote:
martynq: OK. So I should always move the free players first no matter what else is happening?
This is a tougher question to answer. I find that the real trick of the game is prioritizing your actions by necessity and risk.
I think I'm only left with the tough questions. I am no longer a newbie - but I'm definitely not one of the premier coaches. This is why I'm ending up asking the tricky questions in an attempt to get from average internet coach (i.e., pretty decent by many leagues standards) to really good coach.

How do you prioritize necessity vs. risk?

How do you decide where the right place to put your players are?

I guess the answer is that you have to play lots of really good coaches, lots of times, but is there a quicker way?

Martyn

Reason: ''
Dark Elf Blitzer 8/3/4/8 Block, Dodge, MA+1, Shadowing, Side Step, Tackle
User avatar
DoubleSkulls
Da Admin
Posts: 8219
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Back in the UK
Contact:

Post by DoubleSkulls »

martynq wrote:How do you prioritize necessity vs. risk?

How do you decide where the right place to put your players are?

I guess the answer is that you have to play lots of really good coaches, lots of times, but is there a quicker way?

Martyn
Damn good questions that really do elevate you to a top coach. I wish I new the answers, but all too often Guiness clouds my judgement. However here is my tuppence.

Interlocking TZs are the key to good defence and ball protection. Ideally those TZs ought to be overlapping too, so that a knockdown or pushback doesn't open a hole. For agility teams sidestep is an amazing skill for keeping those lines intact even if you get knocked down.

Near the ball - The more players you have near you own ball carrier the better. This means that even if you fail the pickup/handoff/catch/pass or your opponent manages to block the ball carrier there is a good chance the ball will end up near some of your players. This makes it harder for your opponent to exploit their good fortune.

Where they can score - ideally receivers either need to be in a position where they can score in your next turn or where they can run into space and can't be caught. Either way your opponent must dedicate players as cover or risk giving up the TD.

Where they can cover - basically the opposite of the previous point. Don't leave your opponent in a position where he can score without rolling lots of dice or where you can't possibly get to him.

Blocking positions - so next to a downed opponent they can get a 2 dice block on next turn. So if one of your opponents follows up you can 2 dice block him back.

Reason: ''
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
User avatar
roysorlie
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:12 pm
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Post by roysorlie »

martynq wrote:
How do you prioritize necessity vs. risk?

How do you decide where the right place to put your players are?

I guess the answer is that you have to play lots of really good coaches, lots of times, but is there a quicker way?
I have to tell you martyn, I get the feeling you're focusing on the problem, not the solution.

How to prioritize necessity vs. risk, all depends upon what you are aiming to achieve. You have to try to think a couple of turns ahead. Sort of like in chess really. Analyze your situation. What can you acomplish with your risk? How great is the risk? And if you decide to take it, what can you do to prevent total tactic collapse if you fail? Will you be better off by playing it safe? Try to imagine, if you play it safe, what would you do if you were the opposing coach. Will this ultimately result in you being in a bigger pickle? If so, you really don't have much to lose going for the risk.

No guts, no glory. On the other hand, short cuts make for long delays. (Unless you're Aragorn, whos short cuts don't go astray evidently)

Positioning your players is basically a matter of preventing your opponent from getting to your ball carrier, I find that staying out of the opponents tacklezone, and making as many tz's as possible for them to get through is a good bet, like ianwilliams said.

Good coaches have the ability to forsee future events in gameplay. They try to predict their opponent. Easier with an opponent you know, if you don't know him, expect him to be a tactical geinous. Try studying what other coaches do against teams like your own. Be witness to other games than your own for some input.

Oh, and good luck :)

Reason: ''
Roy

Norwegian National Tournament Organizer.

Coachname [url=http://fumbbl.com/~SnakeEyes]SnakeEyes[/url] on [url=http://fumbbl.com/]fumbbl.com[/url]
NAF member 187
High & Mighty
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:56 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Post by High & Mighty »

ianwilliams wrote:I wish I knew the answers, but all too often Guiness clouds my judgement.
Perhaps that's another reason PBEM games tend to appear higher quality than tabletop...I don't usually have a beer in my hand when I take my PBEM turn.
martynq wrote: How do you prioritize necessity vs. risk?

How do you decide where the right place to put your players are?
For me, the important question is usually what's the cost of failure at this point? Sometimes, it's better to leave a free player where he is in case you fail. And then, if you succeed, he's in a position to now move to a better location, whether that's defending your new ballcarrier or putting tz's on the opponent's ball carrier that your blitz just opened up. But generally, I'll move at least a few players into a location that is purely the 'Uh-oh' positions of where they need to be should I fail my important action.

I also generally like a passive-agressive strategy, which is especially good if your opponent has fewer rerolls than you. The idea is basically, make you opponent come to you.

Your defenders between your endzone and their players(@5 players):
If the opening isn't there, be content to hang back and put together a nice screen of tz's that keeps the action in front of you. Their job is in case you fail something, the opponent has to do some work to blow by you.

Your ruckers in the middle of the action(@4 players):
Make a nuisance of yourself. Take any 2-die blocks you can get without opening a gap in your formation. If you get a knockdown, this means the opponent will likely just have to stand up next turn if you leave a tz there.

If you've got a string of defenders behind you, be content to leave a ST3/AV8 player in another's tz, especially if it's away from the ball and especially if he lacks block. This means he'll either be throwing one die or have to move another player there, away from the ball and out of position, to throw a generally unimportant 2-die block.

The end-arounders(@2 players):
With this stalemate in place, send a guy or two the long way around the opponent to put some pressure on their backside to move it upfield prematurely. This puts the opponent in the position of forcing some things he doesn't want to do, which should mean he's burning through rerolls faster than you, which really helps come the end of a half.

They're also there in case you opponent fails an action. Now you have someone back there to who can try to pick up that fumbled ball and move it toward your endzone. Generally, I'll try to leave one of those end arounders as a trailer, staying 3 or 4 squares behind the action. Scares the opponent since I can blitz if need be, but in a position to take a hand off and run out of reach should the opponent fail..which if you've been making him burn rerolls he will do at some point.

But by all means, if he fails a roll, attack the gap mercilessly!!

But sometimes, the dice just don't go your way and the opponent's rolling all 5's and 6's. In that case, no strategy is going to help..other than reaching for another beer.

Reason: ''
Skummy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 4567
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:48 pm
Location: Camping on private island, per BBRC advice.

Post by Skummy »

I guess that leaves me to give offensive suggestions. (Must resist temptation to make a Zombie joke. :roll: )

On offence, the most important thing you have to do is protect the ball from a potential blitz as you set up your scoring attempt. Bashing teams are generally looking to set up a cage as far up the field as possible. More agile teams have the option of keeping the ball back in the hands of their passer and running a hook and ladder play.

Anything that causes you to roll dice is a risk. If you're playing against a good coach, they'll make you roll to do just about everything. There are some things you need to to - getting a player downfield to threaten the pass for example. Others are more of a risk but also more important, like blocking that opponent's tackle zone off your ballcarrier. If you remember to always play for ball security first, you should do all right.

Reason: ''
[url=http://www.bloodbowl.net/naf.php?page=tournamentinfo&uname=skummy]Skummy's Tourney History[/url]
User avatar
Darkson
Da Spammer
Posts: 24047
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:04 pm
Location: The frozen ruins of Felstad
Contact:

Post by Darkson »

Martyn, I'll give you a game with my 100tr HE's. That should make you feel better as those 1's and skulls just roll in for my team :wink:

Reason: ''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
Post Reply