Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[dode74]

perhaps the Dode, Cbbakke, Garion claw-nonsense-fast which is about to erupt could get it's own thread?
I hope so.

If people post nonsense then I'll happily refute it, and suggesting that subjective experience (of anyone) should be a way to assess the impact of changes on balance (as opposed to "fun factor") in a game which is balanced by probabilities and statistics is quite clearly nonsense.

That said, I'll bow out there

[garion]

If people post nonsense then I'll happily refute it, and suggesting that subjective experience (of anyone) should be a way to assess the impact of changes on balance (as opposed to "fun factor") in a game which is balanced by probabilities and statistics is quite clearly nonsense.

That said, I'll bow out there

No one said anything about balance other than you. We were all just discussing the general feeling of a lot of experienced Bloodbowl players.

You need to get over the statistical theory, it is not the only way, as shown before stats can show you anything you want them too, but no one is saying they should be completely ignored either or that coaches feelings are what rules should be based on, you made that assumtion up on your own.

There is a happy medium here, some stats/probability/calculations and some coach feedback from very reliable sources would go a long way in helping league commissioners such as plasmoid come up with house rules they would like to apply in order to narrow the tiers, if this is what he wants. Embrace both sides of the discussion

For me the best two ideas I have seen in this thread have come from me, bringing back traits (not original I know;) ) and then Joemaji who said rather than traits increase the TV cost of certain skills to make team buidling more interesting. This is where the thread is currently up too. Also some more minor details here and there, but you can find them by reading back.

If you have anything to add, any suggestions for improvements please let them be known and people will critique them, possbily from a feel and/or statistical point of view, and I hope you do join in this fun discussion, but if you just want to bang the "everything is perfect in CRP according to the stats" drum then thats fine, but this isn't the thread for it, because some people are interested in what this theoretical LRB7 could turn out like, aren't you?

[dode74]

on balance (as opposed to "fun factor")

Please read what is written.

if you just want to bang the "everything is perfect in CRP according to the stats" drum then thats fine, but this isn't the thread for it, because some people are interested in what this theoretical LRB7 could turn out like, aren't you?

Not banging that drum at all. I've said before what I think needs changing. I don't think it's traits and I don't think it's skill cost - I think it's the environments such as MM and B, and several of Plasmoid's suggestions (which I have responded to in his thread). When someone says

In the past it was not easy to win with a grinder team.

and that is verifiably untrue then that should be called though, shouldn't it? Otherwise a false premise is being used as a part of an argument, especially when they try to back what is a subjective argument (which I have no issues with apart from the fact it's not a measure of balance but of fun) up with apparently statistical ones ("1. New players are more likely to play bashers (most have agreed on that) so they are going to lower the win%." and "2. A lot of bad players also stick with bashers. If they cant win atleast they can survive and do some damage.") which have no actual numerical backing.

Let me just summarise - if you think it's less fun then that's a perfectly legitimate opinion and one I cannot say is wrong (although I reserve the right to respectfully disagree). If you are saying it has put the balance of the game out of whack then you have to back that up with statistics. The stats I have seen from B and MM show that the balance appears to be fine.

[cbbakke]

perhaps the Dode, Cbbakke, Garion claw-nonsense-fast which is about to erupt could get it's own thread?
I hope so.

If people post nonsense then I'll happily refute it, and suggesting that subjective experience (of anyone) should be a way to assess the impact of changes on balance (as opposed to "fun factor") in a game which is balanced by probabilities and statistics is quite clearly nonsense.

That said, I'll bow out there

and as usual you slam somebody else's experience and then start rattling off examples of your own experience as proof. Some things never change. I am not saying that my experience should be the sole reason for changing the game. That is foolish to say the least but you like to try to turn things that way . The point I was making was that numbers are not everything. Do we have to go back to the Bill Gates example? The average person makes 50k. Bill Gates makes 50 Billion, how many people does it take making 20k to have it average at 50k? The end result is 50k for an average though so there is NO PROBLEM. Numbers can be very easily manipulated and are not the BE ALL.

Bloodbowl is an extremely complicated game so thinking you are going to find the truth in balance in a few numbers is well. foolish.

Do bad players tend to play bashers?
-Well. One of the realities is that people's teams get retired because of getting abused on the pitch. That is more likely to happened to a bad coach.
- Your more likely to have your team put into retirement if your playing a non-basher team.
- After people get hybrid/elf teams destroyed, they are likely to go toward survival mode which is a basher team.

Yes some bad coaches are going to keep playing teams and getting wrecked, but in general people are going to move towards a bash team.

[garion]

In the words of Gold Five from Star Wars Eprisode IV - Stay on target, stay on target.

I know your CPOMB monster thread got deleted byt the cyanide buffoons but please create another one on the cyanide forums so you two can argue there

This thread was up to -

Joemanjis idea of having tiers of skills.

So which skills would you have in the tiers and how much extra would they cost. Are there any skills you would improve and take to the +10k or +20k catagory.

Personally, I would like to see the true stand firm back but obviously as a trait, with a slight change... make it work the same as Jump Up for the secondary effect (not falling over) and you need to roll an ag roll +1 for this to work) obviously elves would like this skill alot too, so if it is a double what would the TV increase be then, if you are using joemajis model?

I would also prefer FA and DP to be joined back together so people actually took it.

[dode74]

garion, attacking the person and not the point is beneath you. I haven't, nor will I, make this about claw. What I will do is respond to and call bad arguments, such as the last one which stated that the statistics I brought up (which were based on parsing information from ~20,000 games) is in any way comparable to someone's "feeling" that the balance is off.

As for skills changing, I quite like the PO suggestion of Plasmoid's (because it has exactly the mathematical effect that people appear to want). Should some skills cost more? I guess that depends on how complex we want the game to be. One fairly simple suggestion would be to make the second "doubles" skill cost 20k more than the first, so a player with GA access would currently pay 100k to be a guard SS blodger, but would instead pay 120k. I'd be averse to anything which makes the rules overly complex - after all, you're supposed to (be able to?) play this game drunk!

[cbbakke]

[Personal attack removed]. your 20,000 games are a mix match of different venues. You hated those venues until you found a way to twist the numbers to work for you.

A bad argument is something that uses actual game experience rather then numbers that you mashed together? What a joke. Once again, I am not saying actual experience in game should be the sole decided but it should be used to guide the rules just like the numbers.


As far as back on target:

I would like to see how the new PO works out. I dont have an opinion yet on it.

As for skill cost. I do think some skills are more valuable then others. So an added cost does make sense. I think this would add more variety of builds with skills having a more accurate (compared to actual value of skill) cost.

[dode74]

For accuracy, those 20,000 matches are all from a single venue: FOL.

Now back to your regular topic

[cbbakke]

For accuracy, those 20,000 matches are all from a single venue: FOL.

Now back to your regular topic

oh ok. So all games that are in a horrible system. Using data out of a team value based match making system is not going to be useful imo. I was giving you the benefit that some of the games were in the league setting.

[plasmoid]

Garion - I believe a 'told you so' is in order

[Darkson]

[Mod hat on] cbbakke (see, you can tell I'm serious as I've spelt your name correctly)- if you want a Claw thread, go to a forum that will let you spout your misquotes, attacks etc. freely - you are not doing it here.

Oh, and aim you posts at contents, not the posters - this is an official warning.[/mod at off]

[cbbakke]

[Mod hat on] cbbakke (see, you can tell I'm serious as I've spelt your name correctly)- if you want a Claw thread, go to a forum that will let you spout your misquotes, attacks etc. freely - you are not doing it here.

Oh, and aim you posts at contents, not the posters - this is an official warning.[/mod at off]

I have not even said anything about claw in this entire thread. Others have brought it up, but I have not. I have talked about Basher teams, which includes Orcs and Dwarves. I have also talked about a handful of other aspects of it, but you see my name and in your mind it is about claw. You don't like me, that is fine. It is a two way street. But at least come at me with something I have done.

[Glamdryn]

All of you asshats go back to the cyanide forums...

I was enjoying the LRB7 discussion immensely up until the back and forth riffraff started.

Set up a teleconference or something... it should be productive.

[Glamdryn]

If you increased the value of the strongest skills by 10k, would that not cause the teams that start with those skills to become overpowered?

I think its an interesting idea, but Im not sure its practical.

[garion]

All of you asshats go back to the cyanide forums...

I was enjoying the LRB7 discussion immensely up until the back and forth riffraff started.

Set up a teleconference or something... it should be productive.

Horray for you

If you increased the value of the strongest skills by 10k, would that not cause the teams that start with those skills to become overpowered?

I think its an interesting idea, but Im not sure its practical.

and I'm not sure, I guess the only way to find out would be play testing. I would love to see plasmoid implement this change in his next house ruled tourney on mbbl and I would happily sit down with him and work through the rules with him.