re-rolls at kick-off

[DoubleSkulls]

I don't think you'll ever get any joy from deconstructing GW rules like that. Which ever way you go people will interpret them differently.

The rules are reasonably explicit that you can only use Pro during a team turn.

This is however an exception to the normal rules governing skills - and is really a catch all to stop you using Pro multiple times. Reasonable players would recognised that and allow it to be used during a kick off, the anally retentive would not.

[narkotic]

This is however an exception to the normal rules governing skills - and is really a catch all to stop you using Pro multiple times. Reasonable players would recognised that and allow it to be used during a kick off, the anally retentive would not.

That's what I think, too. Apart from the fact that it would make Pro even weaker than it is now, if you go 100% by the book.

[Athanasius]

If you go 100% by the book, you wouldn't be able to use Catch to catch a kickoff either. The rules state that a skill may only be used once per action (LRB, very beginning of section on skills where it describes their use in general), and catching a kickoff isn't an action.

This seems ridiculous to me. Obviously, you can use catch to catch a kick, and equally obvious (to me) you should be able to use Pro to catch a kick even if a kickoff is neither a turn nor an action. With Leader, it states that it is used in the same way as a team reroll, so only on your turn. With Pro, I think (IMHO) that it is usable for that player, on those few occasions where that player has a personal reroll during a kickoff.

[Old Man Draco]

just a step further then, could I use pass block and catch to get the ball for myself when I'm kicking of. I think it's a bit weird trying to use skills if it's nobodys turn. All that happens is the ball being kicked. Wait till it's settled, then go along and play with all the skills and traits you've got.
Maybe something to be put in the LRB at the kickoff table. "You cannot use skills unless explicitly mentioned (I mean the kick skill of course) during the kickoff."

[narkotic]

Just for the correctness:

@ Athanasius: the act of catching is not an action in game terms, else you wouldn't be allowed to use catch for catching bouncing balls, interceptions or hand-offs. What you refer to is the limit that a player may use any one skill only once in his own move.

@ Draco: Pass Block won't work as nobody declared a pass (it's a kick) (and second you can never pass black one of your own players, anyway)

[DoubleSkulls]

The rules state that a skill may only be used once per action.

But they don't say you can only use skills in actions, just that you can only use them once during an action. That clause is to stop you leaping twice for example.

just a step further then, could I use pass block and catch to get the ball for myself when I'm kicking of

No you can't. PB is quite explicit - you can only make a pass block when your opponent passes the ball.

[Athanasius]

I've had two people quote a paragraph I meant to be taken sarcastically. You are both correct, catch does work on kicks (though pass block states that it must be an interceptable pass so it won't work on kicks). My "objection" to using catch on a kick is supposed to be ridiculous.

The rules state that a skill may only be used once per action.

But they don't say you can only use skills in actions, just that you can only use them once during an action. That clause is to stop you leaping twice for example.

Exactly. And Pro doesn't say explicitly that you can't use it during a non-turn, just that you can only use it once per team turn. I think we all agree that the idea of not using skills during a kickoff is rubbish.

[Bevan]

I think the catch happens during a team turn, not in that vague period when neither team is having a turn.

If a team recieves a Blitz result it is not permitted to catch the ball because it does not hit the ground until after the kickoff event is resolved.

If the Blitz event was not defined as a team turn and clearly before the ball touches down then the catch could be considered to occur before the turn starts, but once teams have started taking turns all action is in either one team's turn or the other.

Therefore the receiving team's turn will start as soon as the kickoff event has been resolved and the first thing that happens after that is that the ball either hits the ground or lands on some player. Therefore the player attempting to catch the ball can use Pro and I can't think of any reason not use a team reroll either.

Maybe this needs to be added to Galak's list for the BBRC since everyone else has agreed that team rerolls cannot be used.

[slup]

Many rolls happen at times at which you cannot use pro.
Most are concerned with injuries:
regeneration
recovering from knocked out
collapsing because of sweltering heat
taking root
niggling injuries
and events during kick off, ie catching the ball, thick skull on throw a rock & field invasion

[Darkson]

Using Bevan's post above, say the ball landed in my catchers square. He tries the catch, fails, uses Catch, and fails again (so nothing unusual there ). During movement, I cage up around the catcher, and attempt the pass from my thrower. I fail the catch again - does this mean I can't use the Catch skill, as I've already used it this turn?

[Snew]

No. You can use it again as the catcher isn't using it during his own action. You can use your skill as many times as it comes up during your team turn but you can use skills only once each during his action.

[Athanasius]

Blitz is a team turn. Check out the kickoff table, it states that it is a bonus team turn.

Having said that, Games Workshop is not in the habit of putting out rulebooks written like legal manuals. People who insist on reading them that way are usually beardy rules-lawyers who try to substitute intentional misreads for good play. While no one is immune to missing specific rules from time to time (ianwilliams caught one of mine on NOS earlier) but try to keep your mind on what they intended. In the case of Pro, it is obviously intended as the ultimate reroll skill, like having Catch, Dodge, Pass, and whatever all rolled into one. It's advantage is you can reroll anything. It's disadvantage is it can only be used once even if you try two different things, and it is only works at all half the time. On the "off the field" events such as Take Root or Regenerate I can see other skills (like Pro) not being allowed. On the field I cannot. Do you really believe a player suddenly forgets he knows how to catch when confronted by a kick then realizes he's not a chump only after the ball has landed?

By the way, the ball does not land during your turn it lands as the very last step of the kickoff.

[Snew]

What was your point?

[bitMonkey]

Your replies make for interesting reading. Let me see if I understand this correctly. While the rules are fairly clear about a player only being able to use Pro once during a team turn, you should be able to use it during a kick-off since it would be too silly otherwise? But the rules are also clear about using a team re-roll only during your own team turn, yet noone seems to find that silly. Team re-rolls, after all, should represent how well-trained a team is, why should that not be represented during a kick-off?

So... basically, the rules are not 100 % clear and one should just use house rules here?

[duff]

Yep