BBRC Hot List - 2003

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:30 pm

Galak,

Unless I'm being completely goofy..... I don't see where this is (properly) covered in the rules review of 2002:-

The review says:

Q: Suppose my opponent pushes back one player into a second player. Who decides where the second player ends up?
A: The coach of the moving team decides all pushback directions unless the pushed player has Side Step. If the player has Side Step, his coach decides where he is pushed to.

The "pushed" player is IMO the player on the receiving end of the block - not a player involved in the secondary push back sequence.

If you read the skill description of both side step and stand firm, they both refer to being blocked or an attacker (same thing in my view):-

Side Step

A player with this skill is an expert at stepping neatly out of the way
of an attacker....

Stand Firm

A player with this skill is never pushed back as the result of a block.....

Neither skill refers to secondary pushes.

So I don't consider that the Rules Review did cover this issue. No player on a secondary push back is involved in a block so therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to say the skill doesn't work.

I agree perhaps the rule could be otherwise - however, as it stands, IMO the rule is not clear - hence why it should be on the list for clarification.

Fair?

Dave

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:37 am

Because

LRB pp36-37

Stand Firm (Strength Trait)
A player with this skill is never pushed back as the result of a block. He may completely ignore ‘Push Back’ results, and Knock-down’ results always knock the player over in the square where he started. ...

and

Side Step (Agility Skill)
A player with this skill is an expert at stepping neatly out of the way of an attacker. To represent this ability, his coach may choose which square the player is moved to when he is pushed back, rather than the opposing coach. ...

Further more the 2002 Rules Review

Q: Suppose my opponent pushes back one player into a second player. Who decides where the second player ends up?

A: The coach of the moving team decides all pushback directions unless the pushed player has Side Step. If the player has side step, his coach decides where he is pushed to.

That produces a reasonably solid case for saying side step does work on secondary pushes but Stand Firm doesn't.

If that is not the intent of the rules then the BBRC need to change the wording.

I think my interpretation makes a lot more sense in game mechanics but does really fit the fluff of SF.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:57 am

Given that a secondary player is only ever pushed back as a result of a block (not on him obviously) and that secondary push backs work just like when blocking, we have always interpreted SF to work in this case...

And I think it should from a fluff point of view...

But yeah it needs clarifying as its not that obvious (after all we are debating it )

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:16 am

noodle wrote:Given that a secondary player is only ever pushed back as a result of a block (not on him obviously) and that secondary push backs work just like when blocking, we have always interpreted SF to work in this case

That's really tenuous - especially for GW rules.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:43 am

Ian W wrote

That produces a reasonably solid case for saying side step does work on secondary pushes but Stand Firm doesn't.

Yeah I can see that... but it is not clear hence why we need clarification and you are making an assumption here (as I am) too - also your bolded part neatly avoids highlighting:

Side Step (Agility Skill)
A player with this skill is an expert at stepping neatly out of the way of an attacker. To represent this ability, his coach may choose which square the player is moved to when he is pushed back, rather than the opposing coach. ...

Perhaps not for the BBRC but even if Side Step and Stand Firm are distinguished in this regard, from a PBEM point of view, both Side Step and Stand Firm should not work on secondary pushes - Side Step is treated like Stand Firm in PBEM (on blocks only).

Dave

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:26 am

Okay I know for a fact that both Side Step and Stand Firm are supposed to work on secondary pushes so I'll add this to the cleaning up the LRB text section. Its not really a question of how the rules works. I know how the rule works, but the wording of the skills could be better.

Galak

Stand Firm (Strength Trait)
A player with this skill is never pushed back as the result of a block or a chained push from a block. He may completely ignore ‘Push Back’ results, and Knock-down’ results always knock the player over in the square where he started. ...

7 extra words fixes that.

Side Step (Agility Skill)
A player with this skill is an expert at stepping neatly out of the way of an attacker or pushed player. To represent this ability, his coach may choose which square the player is moved to when he is pushed back, rather than the opposing coach. ...

3 extra words fixes this one.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:56 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Stand Firm (Strength Trait)
A player with this skill is never pushed back as the result of a block or a chained push from a block. He may completely ignore ‘Push Back’ results, and Knock-down’ results always knock the player over in the square where he started. ...
7 extra words fixes that.

So what happens when you push a non SF player into a SF player? Nothing? That has to be explicit.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 2:58 pm

ianwilliams wrote: So what happens when you push a non SF player into a SF player? Nothing? That has to be explicit.

I don't think it needs to be explicit. If Stand Firm says the player cannot be pushed back than pushing an non SF into an SF means nothing happened and the block chain ended ... seemed straight forward to me.

Galak

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:09 pm

yes but some people might take that to mean you have to push into one of the other squares instead

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:09 pm

Well, the other option is that the pushed individual can't be pushed into a SF player, and has to go into a player that can move.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:10 pm

see people like skummy ;]

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:14 pm

Grumbledook wrote:see people like skummy ;]

Sure, just hold me up as the convenient scapegoat for all that's wrong with people.

I don't mind...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:21 pm

Okay for Skummy ... I'll work on a specific wording for Stand Firm.

Galak

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:09 pm

This all seems like a clarification to the push back rules and not for specific skills, IMO.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:26 pm

i agree with neo put it all in the pushbacks section

sidenote: no offence skummy you are a victim of circumstance ;]