What do you start a Skaven team with?

Ludakk · Post by **Ludakk** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:02 pm

Hello gents!
Just wondering if you could help me and suggest something as far as what to include into Skaven team, I've never played them all that much, but I'm just willing to give them a try after being a bashy-orky player.
Please let me know how and what to include into my starting rat line up.
Thank you!
-L

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:23 pm

Skaven?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:27 pm

I'd be tempted by:

2 Storm Vermin
Thrower
2 Gutter Runners
6 Linerats

3 RR
9 FF
20k in the bank

Get the apoth first.

Zy-Nox · Post by **Zy-Nox** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:38 pm

Yer darksons list looks about right. You have the Important things RR and FF, some like to squeeze in a Ratogre by dropping a SV and ff.
I prefer to drop a liner from darksons roster and put in a second thrower.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:55 pm

Sounds a good option to me, There again I always roll crap money on the first game in a league

los_locos · Post by **los_locos** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:26 pm

Darkson wrote:Sounds a good option to me, There again I always roll crap money on the first game in a league

I'm familiar with that

! Man I just hate when 1 shows up, Except when my oppent is rolling dices!!

Brimstone · Post by **Brimstone** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:57 pm

Zy-Nox wrote:Yer darksons list looks about right. You have the Important things RR and FF, some like to squeeze in a Ratogre by dropping a SV and ff.

I'm one of those Ratogre lovers. This due to our league having lots of bashers, so I usually need something to hit them back.
I want to have it onboard from the beginning so it is easier to develop.
It's true that RO will cause you some unwanted turn-overs, but less than people usually think. IF used properly that it...

JJB · Post by **JJB** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 1:15 am

There are many variants for starting skaven rosters. I believe it's better to give general guidelines rather than offer a fixed roster. My opinion about starting a skaven team is as follows:

Storm vermins: get two right away. They sound expensive, but they will be the only reliable hitters that your team will start with. Without them, you will get beaten up fast...

Throwers: with their speed, one is usually enough to cover your half of the pitch. For a league team, I don't think that buying a second one is a good idea as skavens get injured easily in their early games (but then they are cheap overall...) and starting with too many position players with no protection (i.e. neither block nor dodge) can cost you too much for the development of your team if they get injured early.
Nonetheless, for a tournament team, two throwers can be more useful since there are usually no permanent injuries in most tournaments, and you won't find yourself with your hands tied if you lose one thrower since you'll have a second one as a replacement.
Once you get experienced, you might even think about replacing your thrower with a third GR - the latter is faster and more agile than a thrower, possibly making for the absence of sure hand and pass. However, the lower strength may cost you too much if you are not sure of yourself - I suggest you don't try that tactic before you gain enough experience with skavens.

Gutter runners: it all depends on your league or tournament opponents. If there are lots of bashy teams, I don't find it safe to get more than two GRs because of the low strength your team will have, even though GRs have dodge... However, with more agile opponents, you can get three GRs to make sure you will 'out-speed' everyone.

Rerolls: depending on the money you spent on your players, you should normally find yourself with three rerolls, which is in my opinion the minimum to have some freedom to do anything...

Fan factor: I personally don't think it is necessary for you to get a high FF in a league as your players are overall cheap, and therefore you don't depend on dense cash flow as much as elves would... FF is usually less important in tournaments since money is no issue there.

Rat Ogre: I've put it last because I think it is probably the most contentious point about starting up a new team. In my opinion, it is far too risky to start with a rat ogre (unless it the star player Head Ripper, but then he is not an average rat ogre as such...). Wild animal without the block skill makes you liable to suffer far too many turnovers for you to take the risk to start your team with a rat ogre. Some may always be able to limit the danger by putting their RO away from opponents so that they won't be forced to block at the beginning of their turns all the time, but it is in my opinion too easy to surround a st5 wild animal player to force him to make 2db blocks against himself a couple of times during a half at the beginning of your turn, therefore forcing you onto turnovers and seriously hampering your chances to do much during the game.

Try also to get a 12th player if you play a tournament game. An extra lineman costs the same as an apothecary, but is in my opinion better to buy because his use is more flexible than an apothecary...

Although this is obviously not the only possibility, I believe a good example of a good all round roster, with protection against hard-hitting teams, would be:

2 SV 180k
2 GR 160k
1 T 70k
7 L 350k
- 12 players: 760k
3RR: 180k
6FF : 60k
Total: 1M gc.

For a tournament with a majority of agile opponents, I might try:

2 SV 180k
3 GR 240k
1 T 70k
6 L 350k
- 12 players: 790k
3RR: 180k
3FF: 30k
Total: 1M gc.

I still think that roster #1 is safer. In any case, these are just rosters among many other possible ones...

Good luck!

berserker · Post by **berserker** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:30 am

Usually I started a team with 2 SV, 2 GR, 1 thrower etc like Darkson's but I suffered each time lost twice vs HE and Chaos dwarfs (including the death a a GR on a 2+ dodge...) and clinched a draw with 6 players for the whole 2nd half vs orcs (with 2 dead this time a GR and a SV)...

But I wasn't convinced with that team setup, so I tried something else:
1 Rat Ogre
2 Gutter Runner
1 Storm Vermin
1 Thrower
6 Linerats

Played only 1 game so far, against amazons, won 3-1, a GR got a double and thus dauntless (could have chosen leader for the rat ogre or the legs to develop a 1 turn scorer but I prefer dauntless), got +1 FF so I am far more satisfied with it of course

Play the RO deep when defending, don't allow your opponent to surround it and he should be okay, of course I'll get 1/2 turnover during the game but starting with the rat ogre early, against rookie teams (or close to with less than 5 games), as you should get block pretty fast making him a bit more reliable...

berserker · Post by **berserker** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:41 am

JJB wrote:Fan factor: I personally don't think it is necessary for you to get a high FF in a league as your players are overall cheap, and therefore you don't depend on dense cash flow as much as elves would...

I don't agree here, skaven is one of the most slaughtered team, they have armor 7 but unlike amazons, stunties or norse they have no skills to help them when blocked, unlike the woodies they don't dodge away on 2+. It is very common to see only 7 players (or less!) from the skaven team at the start of the 2nd half, therefore you need a lot of cash to replace your place and enlarge your roster.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:41 am

JJB wrote:Fan factor: I personally don't think it is necessary for you to get a high FF in a league as your players are overall cheap, and therefore you don't depend on dense cash flow as much as elves would...

I'd say for all league teams FF is crucial. Money is important, especially for skaven who have to replace line rats fairly often (Av7, nothing to help them survive blocking and AG3 so they can't dodge everyone away easily).

But there is the other side - kickoffs. Losing pitch invasions is disasterous for most teams, but if you are already getting beaten up

also Get the Ref can kill Skavs if they lose it as Av7 is so easy to break.

JJB · Post by **JJB** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:45 am

Well, that will remain a point of disagreement between us guys. I have always been able to replace my injured skavens easily, and win matches from the beginning, by investing in players and rerolls rather than on maxed fan factor.
On top of that, having to face pitch invasions etc. and suffering from actual casualties is still too remote in my opinion to sacrify a good balance of positional players and rerolls, particularly in view of my first argument, i.e. even if sh!t happens, players can be replaced fairly easily...
Finally, winning a game gets 10k more on the winnings, so that balances the lack of high fan factor in my opinion.

As to the rat ogre, when you are in a league of reasonably good players, trust me, it is very easy to have him turned into a liability by reasonably experienced opponents.

Cooper · Post by **Cooper** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:24 pm

I love RatOgres, but i love oneturners as well, and they work great together.

I think a well played RatOgre doesn't cause that much turnovers, and as soon as he has got block (MVP as soon as possible) he works like a charm. (i usually go: block pro pilingon, but pro and pilingon can be switched)

Basically, he is GREAT in a starting league...when your opponents are of about the same TR as you are...as soon as they've got specialised players it might be another matter.

(if you DO have to throw 2d and DON't go down, you score, because there are 4 players working on him)

I also feel throwers are very valuable, even two might be very good, use the second as linerat, but with 2 extra skills for only 20k extra.

W

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:28 pm

Cooper wrote:Basically, he is GREAT in a starting league...when your opponents are of about the same TR as you are...as soon as they've got specialised players it might be another matter.

I stick my rookie Ogre/Troll/Tree in front your rookie Rat Ogre you will turn over more than 1/3 of the time.

berserker · Post by **berserker** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:57 pm

ianwilliams wrote:I stick my rookie Ogre/Troll/Tree in front your rookie Rat Ogre you will turn over more than 1/3 of the time.

ST5+ players are not that common among rookie team luckily (except for undeads...)