Getting rid of Niggles

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:18 pm

Okay let me explain first.

The older I get the more I hate off-pitch effects. This is why I dislike old OFAB and like the new one in the Annual. Why I'm a big fan of the new onpitch Take Root suggestion being considered, and why I hope this suggestion below gets airtime.

ALL offpitch effects have always meant the player is either worthless or perfect ... I don't like that at all ... move the effects to the pitch so that they effect the game.

Now the one rule I wish Bugman's was testing was a change that Chet's NFL league uses for the Serious Injury roll ... keep in mind the NFL doesn't use aging either, but I don't think that is critical to this.

The Serious Injury roll for them is changed to a D12 instead of D66 (ie the roll for what gets added to the MNG effect):
2-7: No extra effect
8: Player gains Bonehead permantely
9: -1 AV
10: -1 MA
11: -1 AG
12: -1 ST
If a player has Bonehead already and rolls an 8, Bonehead becomes Really Stupid. Really Stupid players treat rolls of 8 as no extra effect.

Then the league completely got rid of Niggling Injuries altogether from the game. This is one change I really liked as it eliminates the last off-pitch negative left in the game (assuming that Take Root and OFAB get officially changed in October). Aging could still work with this system, you could move the 2-8 Niggle to 2-8 Bonehead. In fact, I'd like aging even better this way (it would show that the player's reflexes are just not as sharp as they were in his prime).

Thoughts? I'm just tired of player is perfect, player is not perfect effects of offpitch effects so this change is one that really appeals to me.

Galak

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:09 pm

I could live with that I suppose, but the fact remains that players in real life do miss games due to old injuries acting up which is what niggles are supposed to represent, so though you hate off pitch effects, there will probably be some in the game. It kinda seems to me that this is looking a bit like Chet's "big idea", trying to streamline everything too much. I see nothing wrong with having some off pitch things happen (though not relating to players skills, those should all have on pitch effect). Players get injured in practice, etc. so I can't see all off pitch effects going away totally. Maybe a better way to do niggles is to roll every drive (players do sit out drives due to slight injuries during real football games). I guess what I am saying is that it could probably work to get rid of niggles altogether, but I don't really see the need, the game doesn't need to be so streamlined that there is no variety in the rules. As I said, I support the change to make skills all on pitch effects, but everything doesn't need to be that way.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:31 pm

I don't think this would have a streamlining effect, after all rolling for bonehead most turns takes more time than one niggle roll.

I don't have a problem with niggling injuries as they are, as like Torg says they do represent a real life effect well enough, but it might be more fun to replace them with more varied on-pitch effects, like bonehead.

Perhaps there could be some new negatraits to represent injuries, like only being able to go for it once, or having to spend 4 squares of MV to get up.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:02 pm

Me too, I don't see the immedeate urge to remove nigglings. I have to say, I do not like the idea to introduce Bonehead to non-Big guys (due to aging/injuries). I'm in favour of having control over my game pieces (Big guys are an exception and obviously needed for balancing), but I like to have as less limits as possible in my control over my players.
Having to roll Bonehead for a bunch of players on both sides can be fuzzy, and I'm sure it will be a point of discussion (even now some people forget to roll Bonehead for their Big guys).

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:19 pm

I think the bonehead for injuries idea comes from the fact that there was something similar to that in 2ed called Punch Drunk (but was a little more like Thrud's Easily Confused).

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:54 pm

Hmmm... I could live with this but i'm not really keen on it.

I'm not a big fan of negatraits anyway although they are obviously needed to keep the current incarnation of Big Guys in check.

I'm not keen on the rest of my players gaining them though, this would have a much worse effect on the relaibility of key players than a niggle does and in many cases for me would cause retirement.

Also I can see this is likely to be forgotten by many players and is harder for the opponent to check because unlike with BGs it is not easy to tell who has Bonehead.

I take your point about bringing effects on pitch but, I don't really see this as the way forward i'm afraid.

BTW, I like Torg's idea of making niggles every drive, this would reduce the overall impact on the game but would mean nigglers could not be relied upon to play every drive when needed.

Imagine that all important OTS having to sit out the 8th down drive and loswing you the game.

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:01 pm

i like the nigglings the way they are now. I like seeing my opponets roster and hoping his big star doesn't show up. But if it was changed to this I wouldn't be to upset.

Mike_Black · Post by **Mike_Black** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:41 am

Bonehead could be quite a problem on the pitch. I mean you can remember that this one big guy has no tackle zone next drive. But think of 3-4 players that failed the bonehead. You have to face the sidelines or something to remember. And turning players on the pitch to remember something for them (e.g. if they were stunned at the begin or only prone - there was a thread about this) falled flat.

Edit: yipee, my post to experience

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:51 am

I also do not like off pitch effects, and the rule you have is quiet good...

I would prefer to keep niggling injuries though - with some IN GAME effects - like bonehead etc....

Also I like the idea the players might miss a game because their injury is playing up - but I also like the idea that you could FORCE them to play...

Thats why we have in game effects on Niggles.....
(on our website)

So I suppose I am ambivalent

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:04 am

I think it's the right way to go. Introducing Bonehead as an injury is interesting - but it might happen a bit too often with this table?

mrinprophet · Post by **mrinprophet** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:51 pm

I really like the idea of eliminating off-pitch effects, but, using the table suggested above may make it a cumbersome mechanic. Once I have two or three guys with boneheads, it may become tough to remember who's where and has a tackle zone... PBEM it would work great though. My $0.02.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:37 pm

Its quite a good idea, but:

1) Lots of coaches have difficulty remembering to make Bonehead rolls anyway. Adding it so that your opponent can't easily tell will just make this worse.

2) Bonehead is more negative than either -Av or -MA. I'd swap it round so bonehead moves up to 10, and the others down.

3) Loss of TZ effect on assists, interceptions etc needs to be cleared up - or at least spelt out. Otherwise its going to become much more of a problem.

In general I think I'd rather see -Av in that slot than Bonehead. I like the idea of players getting beaten up over time and more fragile.

Robotorz · Post by **Robotorz** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:10 pm

I like the idea of it and I dont think that bonehead is worse than -av or -mv. You can reroll bonehead since in most of the cases your regular players will become boneheads.

But I do think it will slow games down and too many people will forget about it to often (when not playing with the pbembb tool).

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:12 pm

Removing Niggling.

How would this effect the Virus result on the Handicap table?

Personally, I agree with Xtreme. Seeing a powerful roster full of Niggles gives some off pitch hope. I like niggles (not on my team

) and think that they give a really good dimension to team management. Bonehead seems a lot more negative, as well.

Asperon Thorn

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:12 pm

ouch.... this might be a bit much to ask people to keep track of and will certainly slow play... why not just make niggles per half or per drive... you get an in-game effect without making the player more awkward to use while on the field...