Elves versus bashy teams

[martynq]

I have a conundrum that I still can't seem to fathom the answer to. When playing an elf team against a bashy team, one wants to avoid getting beaten up, so every turn dodge away from one's opponent (if they have higher strength so you can't knock them over with one assist) or push them back (following up only if you get a knock-down).

However, this means that unless you roll very well and get lots of knock-downs, that lots of his players are not in TZs, so it is very easy for your opponent to move them around to cause more problems.

How on earth does one balance the avoiding getting beaten up with putting TZs on players to prevent them moving easily?

Martyn

[McDeth]

Difficult, From the bashy team perspective, i want you to dodge away because it gives me the opportunity to progress upfiled at my own pace with the ability to completely protect the ball carrier, what i dont want is you coming round the side, putting blitzing the cage, and getting TZ's on the ball carrier, as this restricts my movement even more, although this involves taking riskd from the Elf team, its really the only way to break the cage down

[DoubleSkulls]

How on earth does one balance the avoiding getting beaten up with putting TZs on players to prevent them moving easily?

Two ways -

By taking Block and Dodge and then sitting in the TZ of players without Tackle/Block and hopeing they don't hurt you.

Interlocking TZ to restrict movement. Most bashy teams are quite slow, so a couple of well placed players will prevent them moving around too much. Use TZ to channel their drive where you want.

Wardancers Just use your WD clone to knock the ball loose and open up the play.

Teams like DE & HE often need to get stuck in to stop bashy teams - however this is often to the detriment of their longer term development but will help them win games. The ideal is to judge the game flow so that you only commit players when the drive has hit its critical point (normally where your opponent can score next turn without trying hard).

[Asperon Thorn]

A lot of it has to do with opportunity. Ian is absolutely correct, blodge being extremely important. Blodge players can be used to draw players away.

Blitzing different parts also open up bashy teams and with elves speed and agility allows you to get several assists at different parts of the pitch.

Ussually I pester and annoy the bashy team until they fail a pick up, miss a dodge, or do something else for an early turnover, and then spring into action.

Or at least that is the plan, it sounds like you have a similar problem as my own, in which double 1's get rolled on the very first dice requiring action.

Asperon Thorn

[Yavatol]

I agree, it's all about timing.
Try to lure the cage to on of the sides. And lap around. Restrict his movement. Try to pick off individual players. If you are going in for the kill, make sure you at least have a shot at scoring in the same turn. So set up one or two receivers (this might also draw away players from the ball). If the ball carier moves to the sidelines you might have shot at pushing him out (even when you have to make a 5+ dodge to get there). Use your rerolls wisely. Side step is also invaluable during these situations as at reduces the number of blocks he might get at players that did not leave tacklezones and allows you to set up a solid road block with less players.
But perhaps most importantly try to disrupt the cage before it forms. Usually you need to break his offence only once during a game. To do this get kick and pass blockers. Kick the ball deep and if he tries to hold the ball there for one turn, rush your pass blockers forward. It is not an easy tactic but can be very effective when played right.
Good Luck,
Yavatol

[Longshot]

try to find answers on old topics, there are a lot of them with this eternal question

[Munkey]

Also depends on your opponent, some of them will be concentrating on scoring as a priority in which case committing players may cause them to fail rolls and turnover before they can inflict too much damage.

Other players will ignore the ball until they have finished bashing all your players to the ground. Committing too heavily against these often leads to broken elves but a lower score!

Finally I play against a Wood Elf coach who plays his team full on against bashy teams and usually comes out relatively unscathed because of the pressure he puts on.

I think the trick is to either stay clear or tie them up completely otherwise you get players picked off piecemeal.

[NightDragon]

I can only agree. Block/Dodge is the combo. I seem to recall getting slated for this a while back, but if my DE team did not take these 2 skills for their linemen straight off they would have been no where near successful. Ofcourse against developed running teams you also need luck on the kick off. If you can prevent them huddling the ball the game is half won.

[martynq]

Thanks for all the comments, but I think I may have missed out that I'm having trouble scoring. I just lost 1-0 to an orc side where three of the four black orcs had Block or Piling On and the four blitzers all had skills like MB, etc. Including his troll, this meant that there were at least nine of the opposing team I never wanted to leave a single player next to.

You say that I need to get Blodge... I've now played 15 matches with this team and I have two linemen with Blodge and several others are getting near. Presumably with elves you just have to wait until about 20 games until you are ready to actually win.

try to find answers on old topics, there are a lot of them with this eternal question

This is probably true, but I would hardly call any of the answers definitive. Most people just say.. dodge away and only let your opponent have one blitz. OK, but that means he can just move his players without any difficulty, so there is a definite flaw in this plan.

It is my opinion at the moment, that BB is much easier for teams such as orcs... it seems much harder for elves. (This would seem to be born out by the MBBL for example, where the top positions are all occupied by bashy teams.)

Martyn

[Robotorz]

Defending his for me harder that offence with High Elfes. I have to admit that I am not a good Elf Coach but I know that with only dodging away you wont defend verry efective.

Step 1: At beginning of turn i dodge away with some players so he can only advance 1 or 2 squares, even with a blitz, still leaving some of the players in tackle zones.
Step 2: Then I move 2 players to the back of the cage and put tacklezones on 2 players.
Step 3: After I have opened a tiny gap I try to blitz the ball carrier and put pressure on the ball.
Step 4: If my Blitzer did not cause a turnover I move other players all other players out of tacklezones and try to set up that he will only get 1 die blocks

Try to breake the cage before it formed. A player with kick always helps here. Shoot the ball into his backfield so he either has to pass the ball or has to wait 1 turn with forming the cage.


On offence use a side to break through. Blitz a hole in his defense and bring some recivers there.
Try to keep the ball carrier out of blitzing range against slow teams.
If team is faster set up a box to secure him at least 1 turn.

After doing all necesary rolls try to breach on the other side as well. A player with leap has good chances to get through there and will distract 1 or 2 players.

Before passing the ball put tacklezones on players that could reach a fumbled or un-catched ball (with out rolling dices if possible)

[skwpp]

I often use guerilla tactics. Hit on his isolated players, expecially lone blitzers and other potential scorers. Then make sure his cage cant move one or two squares per round and hope for him to make a mistake.

[martynq]

Hmmm, to be honest, I don't feel that this thread is answering sufficiently my problem. Is there anybody interested who also plays PBEM who would be willing to look at the game I played and suggest what I might have done wrong? (Might be quite a bit of work, but I would be very grateful)

Cheers,
Martyn

[NightDragon]

I don't think you are going to get much help here M. Fact is DE's don't do well in Leagues generally and running teams are some of the best around. Unless you get doubles for dauntless, guard or st increases Orc teams like you mentioned are hard to beat. My DE team got beaten twice 2-1 and I just couldn't break his pocket.

[martynq]

Fact is DE's don't do well in Leagues generally and running teams are some of the best around.

Really?? Rats!! So shouldn't something be done to balance it up a bit so that dark elves are not clearly inferior to orcs?

Martyn

[noodle]

Elves can do well against bashy teams (though it takes a bit of luck)

If you dodge away ONE square each turn and then produce a backed up line (i.e. two lines of players!) in front of the opposition they will NOT score with out trying to "breakout" their cage.

Before they do this before to have a few players in scoring/blitzing range for when it all goes wrong...

Breaking out a cage is VERY risky...

In my game against McDeth (Undead vs. elves) that very thing happened (though I lost - tell an elf to go for it and he falls on his face) and against another player (dwarfcoach I believe) I dodged away 1 square and he couldn't score for most of the half... Though I had trouble getting round the back thanks to - yes failed go for its...

Ultimately as your team develops - get blodgers for stalling - blodgers with sidestep even better!

Also leap, guard and stripball on key players...

And put your catchers on in defence and leave them in scoring range - Its ALWAYS a good idea....