Elves versus bashy teams

Slim Shady · Post by **Slim Shady** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:26 pm

Yeah, my DE team has really suffered against bashy teams, although unlike my Skaven they haven't lost any players yet. Unfortunately out of the 14 players on the roster I think 7 are niggled. This means I usually only have 12 make it to each game (gotta save the APO for those KILLED results that always seem to pop up).

I've found that the advantage DE have over Orcs is that they have AG4. Using the agility has to be the key - but I get too many damn snake eyes to really know. I was pretty pleased when I was playing them against a four-mummy Khermi team I only had 3 players left on the field, and I was still preventing him from reaching the end-zone! (Mostly due to unlucky block dice for him)

I have also found it a problem when (as mentioned) an opponent will focus on killing all your players THEN try to move the ball. Keeping your guys back helps, but leaves them out of range to do anything if your opponent drops the ball (they can essentially sit back there all day until they pick it up - crushing your isolated players at their convenience) Usually I try to get as many players with Block, Tackle, and Guard as I can right up in a line and "in their face", and hope they get a bad roll on a block attempt. I haven't won a lot of games though, but I'm still new to the game.

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:43 pm

Don't know if you are being sarcastic or not Mr M but I have wanted this for years. Why should DE's not be allowed a BG? 4 blitzers helped slightly but extra help is still needed.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:02 pm

DeputyDawg wrote:Don't know if you are being sarcastic or not Mr M but I have wanted this for years. Why should DE's not be allowed a BG? 4 blitzers helped slightly but extra help is still needed.

I will use this as another opportunity to toot the "DE runner" horn.

Proposing to replace the DE thrower with the Runner.

Code: Select all

0-2 Runner 7 3 4 7 Sure hands G, A, Pa 90k

This would handle that line of fluff that everyone was all up in arms about; as well as, add some more speed to the team.

Now to Martyn, the DE's are by far the slowest of elf teams, not to say that can't be successful. But you have to be a little more aggressive with them to score. The best way, is to heavily weight one side, use your Blitzers and Witch elves, to punch a hole, and rush some guys through. During which you keep you Ball carrier waaaaaay back. The next turn you want to do a run, quick pass, run, handover, run-to-score manuever.

It is more of a threat if your player in the backfield is a developed thrower, as he can just do a long pass. Offense doesn't need a lot of Blodge, but it helps. A lot of block is much more useful, in order to punch a hole.

I hope that finally answers your question, I think everyone assumed you meant defensive help, because that is the most common question.

Asperon Thorn

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:39 pm

Not sure De's need another/replacement skill player, but they do need help in a fight. Why should ratscum for instance get a RO when they are faster than DE's and a lot cheaper? De's cannot hold their own in a brawl with any team with an AV 9. Hell even Norse get a Mino or Ogre!

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:56 pm

Once they get Blodge, or even just Block, DE can hold thier own against most teams. But with AG 4 they shouldn't be getting into a straight brawl. They should pick and choose thier fights across the pitch. The problem that DE have, is they don't have nearly the speed of WE's and HE's. WE's lose armor but get speed across the board, while HE have 4 MA 8 str 3 players.

The Runner gives a little bit more speed, by allowing 8 MA7 players, but does not overly change the roster. I haven't had problems playing against BG's, when I play DE, I do have a problem with just not having enough speed, being one too short of the endzone, losing a few of my blitzers and Witchies, and being stuck without any sort of speed whatsoever.

The Runner proposal was to make the DE's more distinct from the rest, without changing the overall make up of the team.

Asperon Thorn

Post by **Dave** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:03 pm

DeputyDawg wrote:Not sure De's need another/replacement skill player, but they do need help in a fight. Why should ratscum for instance get a RO when they are faster than DE's and a lot cheaper? De's cannot hold their own in a brawl with any team with an AV 9. Hell even Norse get a Mino or Ogre!

It's not as if you want each team to be exactly the same. Delfs ain't got a BG, but have AG4 and AV8 to boot.

If you give eacht race a BG, make them have the same stats / skills as well, waay more balanced, but waaaaay more boring as well

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:47 am

I'm just cheesed SD that GW favoured other teams, and after thinking about your points AT I like them very much. The biggest problem with DE's is their comparative lack of speed so your runner idea is great. No decent star players either, not that I ever use them.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:13 am

DeputyDawg wrote:Don't know if you are being sarcastic or not Mr M but I have wanted this for years. Why should DE's not be allowed a BG? 4 blitzers helped slightly but extra help is still needed.

Nope, I'm not sarcastic. When I originally started playing BB, I started with DEs, thinking they looked like a decent side. I still have a soft spot for them, but it does seem to me that the game is tilted slightly in the direction of bashy teams. I don't know if it is true or not, but my guess is that the members of the BBRC are fans of teams other than HE/DEs. Certainly, Chet is a big Amazon fan (which I guess is why they continue to get the advantage of cheap re-rolls) and I wonder whether similar things hold for the other members. No-one seems to be fighting the HE/DEs' corner, yet all we seem to receive is loads of people who go on about how they don't want to play "frickin' elfball" and how they want to kill elves. Look at the MBBL... there is no elf team in the current top 15 and lots of bashiness in there (oh yeah, and amazons!).

Martyn

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:28 am

Top end elven teams are fine. The Fumbbl stats show all elven teams win ~50% of games at TR200-250.

That isn't broken by any stretch of the imagination.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:33 am

Er. Dark elves have been consistent winners of our championship over the years as have wood elves. The only elf team NOT to have won a major are high elves and thats because I played them.... Oops I've come second a lot

DEs do NOT NOT NOT need a big guy.

I'm glad the online leagues back this up....

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:44 am

What do you mean by top end elf teams? Do you mean that I need to play enough games to get my elves to 250 or 300 TR before I can expect to win consistently? (It's already taken 15 games to get them to 180TR.)

I'm not at all convinced that the FUMBBL proves anything - if I were running an elf team there, I would simply only accept a challenge against a team that I deemed not to be too bashy. As for leagues where you don't get to choose who you play, I pointed out there is no elf team in the top 15 of the MBBL.

Also, I'm not considering WEs in this discussion... they are considerably different to DEs/HEs. Lower AV means that you have to do the dodge away at all moments, but the extra MA helps them tremendously.

Also forget 50% win rate.. shouldn't the best coaches be getting a much higher win rate? Jay Deckman's dwarves in the MBBL have a 78% win rate... where are the dark elf teams with 75%+ win rate?

Martyn

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:44 am

Maybe you're just unlucky. My norse have a team rating of 119 after 8 games

5 deaths doesn't help...

But really I have seen Dark elves do badly because of casualties and also avoid them altogether - while still playing "bashy" teams...

It depends on your league though - granted if its got more "bashy" teams in it the elves are going to suffer! But so will the "bashy" teams not necessarily do as well....

In a league of many different races I've only seen a couple of elf teams do badly because of high injury/death rates...

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:56 am

I do like your views M, its been a long while since I came across someone who felt the same. I would not be surprised if there are not too many DE coaches at heart at GW or the BBRC. But I shall keep to the cause.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:59 am

Dunno how lucky I am. My general strategy is to never leave one of my elves in base-to-base contact with opponent unless I have at least the same strength as he does and I am also kitted out to bash better than he is. (So I won't leave a line-elf next to an orc blitzer unless accompanied by a friend, but would leave a line-elf with block next to a skaven linerat without block.) In the 15 games I had, my apothecary wasn't able to heal one stat reduction and four deaths. So I have 13 elves on my team at the moment.

I have managed some good wins against but also sometimes fail completely. This team managed to convincingly beat Deathwing's high elves 4-1, but just seemed to have absolutely no clue against the orc team I've just played - lost 1-0, but to be honest never seemed to be in with a chance of scoring whatsoever. I just kept getting locked up in TZs and couldn't really move about at all.

My deduction from this is that I can win against high elves and probably against teams with no players of ST > 3, but can't beat bashy sides.

Martyn

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:23 pm

martynq wrote:My deduction from this is that I can win against high elves and probably against teams with no players of ST > 3, but can't beat bashy sides.

I wont deny that its tough beating bashing teams at mid ranking TR. However it isn't impossible and elves are much better later on.

What does your team look like at the moment?