stabd firm on a Wild A., worth it ?

Geggster · Post by **Geggster** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:03 am

Matsu wrote:
You're assuming that it's NOT supposed to work that way. How am I supposed to know the mind of the designer? It's in the rules, and fairly clearly for that matter, so why wouldn't I play it that way? To me, it just seems like smart use of skills, not some grand scheme to defraud the game.

I'm not assuming anything. You are forced to make a block (or blitz) with a wild animal during a turn if he starts the turn upright and next to an opponent. By dodging out, you run the risk of never making that block which isn't just against the spirit of the game, its against the rules of the game as well.

Robotorz · Post by **Robotorz** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:01 pm

As far as I understand the rules you have to block/blitz a adjectand player with a wild animal. So you blitz with him the player next to you and then you are free to move him wherever you want(after following up because of frenzy)

Wild Animal
The player has a nasty tendency to get a bit carried away
during a match. Wild Animals must take their actions first of
all during a turn (they must be activated). If you take an action
with another player before moving all Wild Animals, then your
opponent can call you for illegal procedure exactly as if you
had forgotten to move the Turn marker. In addition, if a
standing Wild Animal is adjacent to a standing player from the
opposing team then they must take either a Block or Blitz
action, and throw a block at an adjacent player. Last but not
least, Wild Animals can never receive assists when they
Block or Foul; they are simply too out of control for other
players to help them out.

slackman · Post by **slackman** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:36 pm

here's where the beardyness sets in. since you are allowed to use a blitz, and blitzes allow you to move and throw a block at any point during your movement, it is allowable to declare a blitz, and dodge away from your opponent as long as you are going to come back and hit the same player you started next to. so if your opponent puts 4 guys on you, you can dodge out and hit one of them so you dont get a 2d their choice block. but since a failed dodge w/ stand firm ends that player's action, you are able to sidestep the block entirely. the first part of this has been ruled as allowable, the second part concerning stand firm specifically is whats being debated.

slackman42

Post by **Thadrin** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:11 am

Stand firm is still a pretty good choice for a WA, beardy cheese debate or no.

A ST5 stand firmer (with prehensile tail!) is a GOOD thing.
A ST5 Frenzier with stand firm is a VERY good thing.

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:26 pm

The situation described in this thread came up with a friend last night, I used to play skaven under the old trial big guy rules and loved him but under the new ones he is just a turnover waiting to happen.

After the game I relized the strange situation.

Situation: I tie up a rat ogre with 4 players all with S3 to force him to become wild, is the wild animal alowed to dodge away rather than take the 2 dice against him roll he has where he stands?

Lets say he is allowed to dodge away using his blitz action, does this meen all I have to do is return and throw the block doing anything I want in the between time or must I stay in the player I want to block's tackle zone?

Lets say you may doge free and do whatever you want, whats to stop the ratogre from dodging away to do a TD if the situation allowes, scoring the TD will end the play and thus he wont have to return to complete the block.

If scoring a TD meens he wont have to do the block can I use the full move to get the rat ogre to complete a TD rather than sparing move to get back and potentially do the block?

All I know is you have to make the block, thats in the rules, you MUST throw a block against an ajacent player you however have a choise wether it be a block or blitz action but it MUST be one of those.

to me this meens you MUST complete both, the only way I can interpret it is that you have to throw the block from where you stand.

However as you are allowed to use a blitz action people will argue you may move and then throw the block, I can understand the wish for it to work like this as the way I interpret it makes a rat ogre on the field a free turnover.

All this about combining it with stand firm is to me just proof that the wild animal rules need a complete workover.

To me there are 2 good variants to use as house rules that I will sugest to my gaming group:

1: a wild animal player does not have to go first, all the other rules will apply but as you can get interfearence in there the insanity will be removed, this is the version I would prefer as the ratogre can be used strategicly and not only as brute force that messes upp whatever plan you have.

2: The wild animal will still always have to go first but will only go wild on a D6 roll of 1, on 2-6 it remains calm enough to realize it may not be in its own best interest to blindly attack. If it does go wild however its a mess.

Ither of thise alterations will make the wild animal player to become playable but problematic as it should be.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:41 am

If standing, you have to block/blitz a standing player next to you.

To do otherwise is a rules violation, equivalent to failing to make a dodge roll.

So you can't.

IMO you must throw the block 1st, even if making a blitz action, as to do otherwise risks failing to perform a mandatory action.

Cooper · Post by **Cooper** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:38 am

ianwilliams wrote:If standing, you have to block/blitz a standing player next to you.

To do otherwise is a rules violation, equivalent to failing to make a dodge roll.

So you can't.

IMO you must throw the block 1st, even if making a blitz action, as to do otherwise risks failing to perform a mandatory action.

I do understand his point though, IF you are allowed to
1) announce you are going to blitz
2) dodge
3) Blitz the player next to you, but from a different angle

Then anything in between can happen, you can fail your dodge roll, which ends his Blitz prematurely (and ends your turn, normally), but you could also walk into the endzone "accidentily" while holding the ball, which also ends his blitz prematurely (and your turn, maturely

)

So i agree that if not yet clear (which it is not to me) it should be changed to using the block dice as first thing in that turn.
W

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:55 am

Cooper wrote:I do understand his point though, IF you are allowed to
1) announce you are going to blitz
2) dodge
3) Blitz the player next to you, but from a different angle

Then anything in between can happen, you can fail your dodge roll, which ends his Blitz prematurely (and ends your turn, normally), but you could also walk into the endzone "accidentily" while holding the ball, which also ends his blitz prematurely (and your turn, maturely )

So i agree that if not yet clear (which it is not to me) it should be changed to using the block dice as first thing in that turn.
W

IMO you can't make the dodge - as doing so means there is a chance you wont make the block - which you MUST do.

We agree that it could do with some clarification. I wonder if the BBRC are going to change WA this time round.

Cooper · Post by **Cooper** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:14 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
Cooper wrote:I do understand his point though, IF you are allowed to
1) announce you are going to blitz
2) dodge
3) Blitz the player next to you, but from a different angle

Then anything in between can happen, you can fail your dodge roll, which ends his Blitz prematurely (and ends your turn, normally), but you could also walk into the endzone "accidentily" while holding the ball, which also ends his blitz prematurely (and your turn, maturely )

So i agree that if not yet clear (which it is not to me) it should be changed to using the block dice as first thing in that turn.
W
IMO you can't make the dodge - as doing so means there is a chance you wont make the block - which you MUST do.

We agree that it could do with some clarification. I wonder if the BBRC are going to change WA this time round.

Well, i do agree with you that that is how it should be (and thus the clarification), but i think the rules do not prohibit it now...

W

Alesdair · Post by **Alesdair** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:52 am

If you actually read the skill that Robotorz typed out for ya...

In addition, if a standing Wild Animal is adjacent to a standing player from the opposing team then they must take either a Block or Blitz
action, and throw a block at an adjacent player.

forget fluff, forget loopholes...

the rules say it themselves.

no dodging away to hit someone else, the block/blitz must be thrown at an adjacent player.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:42 pm

Ah, but people are talking about dodging away and hitting one of the adjacent players from another direction.

WA Dodge

So if 1 is the WA and 1-5 are ST3 opponents, it's a 2d block against any of them. What people are saying is/isn't possible for the WA to dodge away an blitz say 5 from the corner, as it would still be a blitz on an ajacent player

Alesdair · Post by **Alesdair** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:24 am

OK...
i have a patch for that loophole.

Sure i can see that you can argue that because it's a blitz, then the WA can try a dodge first to get a better hit at an opposing player...

but the wording of the rules says that the WA HAS to throw a block, be it in a blitz or not...

SO

is it not therefore obvious that if the WA fails his dodge, he failed to throw a block and thus broke the rules of the skill.
Illigal procedure... turnover anyway...

but with SF the failed dodge will be a turnover without the WA going down, which was a probable result of the 2 dice against block he would have tried to do...

SF would be a usefull skill if it is critical that the WA doesn't go down...
but it wouldn't stop the turnover, by my reading of the rules.

Odium Khan · Post by **Odium Khan** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:14 am

That's an interesting take on the rules, Alesdair (I like it). However, this means you can suffer a turnover while still moving the ball one square forward (helps if you have break tackle also) and possibly into the end zone. This would be trying to get around the rules, but at least not trying to hide it.
This particular loophole has to do with your way of dealing with an illegal procedure though. As we play it in TTBBL right now, actions carried out prior to calling for it remains.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:03 am

Alesdair wrote:is it not therefore obvious that if the WA fails his dodge, he failed to throw a block and thus broke the rules of the skill.
Illigal procedure... turnover anyway...

Its not a IP.

Only failing to go 1st is an IP.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:45 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
Alesdair wrote:is it not therefore obvious that if the WA fails his dodge, he failed to throw a block and thus broke the rules of the skill.
Illigal procedure... turnover anyway...
Its not a IP.

Only failing to go 1st is an IP.

Hmm...to my understanding, an IP is called, whenever you break the rules, no matter how. But anyways, I also think that you have to Block first, the Blitz part is, IMHO, only written there, to allow the WA to move after he blocked. But yes, it is unclear