Elves versus bashy teams

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:39 pm

Those Hoomie teams can be misleading. I was playing against a couple of undead teams, and some dwarves, and was looking forward to playing the hoomies on my schedule. The didn't have an ogre, and still managed to do more damage than the other one's.

Asperon Thorn

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:00 pm

To me blood Bowl is for a large part about movement. I do not know how plays generally look, but when playing with elves the players should be pretty much spread out over the board. A good bashing team will always want to huddle all your elves together because then his strength skills prove to be the most adventous. DE are indeed the slowest of elf teams but with AG 4 you should still be able to dodge away and make the most of your average move. That way you can be stronger than most bashy teams because you can always move up those assists. Consider to ignore the LOS entirely when you are receiving. At least do not commit to many players to knock it down. If there are 5 dwarves on the LOS you are looking at a fight you cannot win. But you can catch them flatfooted by running away and picking fights elsewhere.
One trick you can use against bashy teams is to lure the team to one side by making a push there, but move play to the otherside when you are going to score. Humans team can do this also reasonably well.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:19 pm

Oh yeah,
I just remembered a play that works very well for my humans and WE. I usually call it a running cage. An opponent of mine used it against me once, and have been using it quite frequently ever since.
Well here goes.
When you receive put up one blitzer type and one receiver type on the LOS in the wide zone. Pass the ball to the receiver. Smash a hole in the defence with other players, and run the receiver through. The receiver end up next to the sideline, the blitzer type should be one square further and one square to the inside. Run up another player so the formation looks something like this:

B_|
_A|
C_|

Now your opponent is going to try to swamp you so move your other players to prevent his movement. The more players you can bring up from your own half during your next turn the better. B is the most likely candidate for the enemy's blitz so he can put a tackle zone on your ball carrier. But don't wory it is surprisingly easy to escape and score the next round. A is likely to make a blitz move. But even if you get two dice against you getting a push or better is still quite likely.
This play works very well if your opponent did not put up a deep defence. He will have difficulty to swamp you.
However, do not try this if your oponent has leapers or many ST3 AG4 dodgers, you will be very likely be pushed off the side. But then Side Step works wonders.
Good luck,
Yavatol

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:58 pm

You are right that speed is very important - because it allows you to recover from positional errors and avoid unwanted attention too. IMO its one of the reasons Dwarves are so hard to play well (one mistake and you are toast).

As for the sideline play - it can work but I like my opponents to do it. If they can only go one way it reduces their options - meaning I've got less turf to cover. I'd normally try to blitz C (presuming he's closest to my endzone) and then force you to move backwards too.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:11 pm

I do a similar play as described, but I hold my ball back. Either using my thrower to move the ball all the way up, or do the Pass to handoff/handoff to pass manuever.

Theoreticaly people are positioned so that one person is "safe", but anyone who makes it deep is a potential scorer.

Asperon Thorn

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:26 am

Actually in my diagram B was supposed to be closest to the endzone. However with an DE elf team you still have the possibility to move the play. You can till move the ball carier back handoff and pass to a player on the otherside of the field. Who will not be very likely to score that turn but you probably drew most opposition to the running cage in the first place. So he'll still have a good chance at scoring the turn thereafter.

It really is quite effective. The times I have used it I scored from that formation (although sometimes with a little luck). Of course the tric is also to judge when to use this maneuvre.

Yavatol

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:33 am

By the way,

I think the DE runner might be a good idea. However I am unsure about Sure Hands as starting skill. There is no player that starts with AG 4 and Sure Hands, how about dodge or sure feet as a starting skill?

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:03 am

Deathwing wrote:Interesting thread.

Hi DW, welcome back!

My MBBL Helfs are as old as Martyn's MBBL Delfs, they're both at 7-7 and my TR is 176 to Martyn's 184, so there's nothing in it. Unfortunately I haven't kept full records, but 3 of my 7 defeats (that immediately spring to mind) were against Martyn's (aforementioned) Delfs, a Skaven team and a narrow loss in a great game against Chet's Zons. Dunno what our comparative records are against what you might term 'bashy teams', but it'd be interesting to find out.

My record is something like this:
Played 15 matches versus:
Chaos once (1 win... it was, however, a very young Chaos side with very few skills, while I was rather well developed)
Dwarves 4 times (1 win, 3 losses)
Goblins once (1 win)
Halflings once (1 win)
High elves (DW's) twice (1 win, 1 loss)
Necromantic once (1 win)
Norse once (1 win)
Orcs once (1 loss)
Skaven once (1 loss - couldn't handle the well developed Rat Ogre at all)
Vampire once (1 loss - Vampire Lord was wielding a stiletto as part of a handicap roll and caused vast amounts of havoc)
Wood elves once (1 loss)

Most of my problems seem to have been caused by teams with strong players that I couldn't handle. I reckon I would have stood a good chance against the skaven team if they didn't have their rat ogre for example. The early loss against the WEs and HEs was sheer incompetence... I'd like to think I've improved since then.

(And the very fact that we're both at evens after 14 games each in a reasonably bash happy league tells me there's not too much wrong, n'est-ce pas?). The fun starts here. Keep the faith.

Is the MBBL particularly bashy? I'd presumed it was pretty normal and that it was just the people I normally play with who are less bashy. I'll keep going but sometimes I just get these matches where I don't have a clue what I'm doing wrong.

Martyn

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:36 pm

Yavatol wrote:By the way,

I think the DE runner might be a good idea. However I am unsure about Sure Hands as starting skill. There is no player that starts with AG 4 and Sure Hands, how about dodge or sure feet as a starting skill?

You know, I like this idea a lot. Sure Feet would solve a lot of the problems that people have with the lack of movement on the roster.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:02 pm

Yavatol wrote:By the way,

I think the DE runner might be a good idea. However I am unsure about Sure Hands as starting skill. There is no player that starts with AG 4 and Sure Hands, how about dodge or sure feet as a starting skill?

Actually Surehands is more to counter strip ball, pick ups was a secondary concern, but with the amount of 1's I roll I don' t mind it. Theoretically if they are a running team they would have a good guy that can just hold on to the ball, and do amazing scoops, out of tacklezones.

Asperon Thorn

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:10 pm

Well, there is no team that starts with strip ball, is there? So I don't think there is a real need to start with sure hands to counter strip ball. I imagine DE runners picking up the skill quite fast anyway. With sure feet or dodge (or both!) you'll have some serious speed in a DE elf team. And the ability to get passings skills allows you to develop a player with dump off and accurate. That'll make for an enterily different play, setting the DE and HE teams a little further apart. If you have him start with sure hands, chances are he'll still develop into a thrower.
Yavatol

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:36 am

Yavatol wrote:Well, there is no team that starts with strip ball, is there? So I don't think there is a real need to start with sure hands to counter strip ball.

No Elves start with Sure Hands but there is plenty of precedent for other players starting with it.

I imagine DE runners picking up the skill quite fast anyway. With sure feet or dodge (or both!) you'll have some serious speed in a DE elf team. And the ability to get passings skills allows you to develop a player with dump off and accurate. That'll make for an enterily different play, setting the DE and HE teams a little further apart.

DE runners could also pick up Sure Feet or Dodge just as easily, and in fact I would imagine that if they are actually used as runners they would have Dodge fairly quickly.

If you have him start with sure hands, chances are he'll still develop into a thrower.

I have plenty of players on Bashy/Running teams that use Sure Hands both to pick up the ball and as defence against Strip Ball (esential in a league with Wadancers) without being throwers.

He'll only develop into a Thrower (ie. accurate, pass, etc.) if the player wants and there is no way to prevent this while DE's have passing access.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:57 am

No Elves start with Sure Hands but there is plenty of precedent for other players starting with it.

But there is no precedent of AG 4 players starting with Sure Hands.

[/quote]

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:23 am

Munkey wrote:DE runners could also pick up Sure Feet or Dodge just as easily, and in fact I would imagine that if they are actually used as runners they would have Dodge fairly quickly.

How many Elves ever really pick up Sure Feet, though? I think a 7 3 4 7 Sure Feet player would be pretty unique, and a genuinely different and valuable addition to the DE roster.

NightDragon · Post by **NightDragon** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:17 pm

I agree with you here Skummy. They would be valuable indeed, and has given me new ideas for skill combos. In fact the more I have thought about this thread the more I like the idea of Runners.