Cards vs Table

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:31 pm

Hmm with all this talk about cards and handicap table I want to clear something out.

The cards were definately unbalanced - that's fact.
But the use of cards generally was much more fun than the handicap table.

So why not just generate some balanced cards ? Then both factions would be done justice and it would be a great solution IMO

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:38 pm

True but half the fun was the fact they were unbalanced.

IMO they have to be "unbalanced" (which makes no sense anyway!) to be any fun. Some HAVE to be better than others. The only thing league wise that matters is that over a season they have the desired effect:

1) Fun
2) Interesting events
3) Help for smaller team

Cards won't come back because they'll never be reprinted - I just want a handicap table more like the cards!

Of course some people will still dislike the fact that, on occasions, you will lose a game because of a card/handicap etc...

p.s. last night I had fake play and razzle dazzle. He had snack break and inspired play...

I got a blitz on the KO and won the ball... He used snack break to get into my cage... I used razzle dazzle to get his ball carrier... he used inspired play to stand up and score anyway!

So it all cancelled! Much fun tho

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:17 pm

Okay Noodle, I see where you are comeing from.

But in the time cards were introduced as a balancing factor for games. And for this reason they should be balanced in my opinion.

If you want them to be random, well ... okay do it, but don't expect them to even up differencies in TR between coaches.

Lazerus101 · Post by **Lazerus101** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:17 pm

Exactly my point some of the cards were a bit much but sooooo much more fun to play with. And at the end of the day isnt that why we play? to have fun?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:42 pm

Lazerus101 wrote:Exactly my point some of the cards were a bit much but sooooo much more fun to play with. And at the end of the day isnt that why we play? to have fun?

Ah ... but see what you neglect is the definition of fun. I play for fun ... anyone who plays Halflings better be in it for the fun first. But losing a game that I was about to win from some lame-*ss card that a player got for free was never my definition of fun.

Galak

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:00 pm

Relborn wrote:
So why not just generate some balanced cards ? Then both factions would be done justice and it would be a great solution IMO

I think the problem is what constitutes a set of balanced cards. I've considered this myself and its virtually impossible to generate say 12 or even 24 balanced results.

ScottyBoneman · Post by **ScottyBoneman** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:05 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Lazerus101 wrote:Exactly my point some of the cards were a bit much but sooooo much more fun to play with. And at the end of the day isnt that why we play? to have fun?
Ah ... but see what you neglect is the definition of fun. I play for fun ... anyone who plays Halflings better be in it for the fun first. But losing a game that I was about to win from some lame-*ss card that a player got for free was never my definition of fun.

Galak

I hear that.

On the other had, I used to have to drive an hour to a once-weekly game as my 'special time' away from the family and to get there a find I am facing some guy who is going to cage and try and score on his 8th turn on both halves is definitely not fun.

I would rather lose to some entertaining chaos if the cards happened to go badly then play a game where 90% of the tactics are decided before I got in the car. Dwarven coaches I am looking in your direction....

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:10 pm

McDeth wrote:
Relborn wrote:
So why not just generate some balanced cards ? Then both factions would be done justice and it would be a great solution IMO
I think the problem is what constitutes a set of balanced cards. I've considered this myself and its virtually impossible to generate say 12 or even 24 balanced results.

But if it can be done with a handicap table, where you make a roll and take the result, how much more difficult could that be for cards ?

Maybe I just do not see the problem, because I did not try to make a new set of cards ...

ScottyBoneman · Post by **ScottyBoneman** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:22 pm

Relborn wrote:
McDeth wrote:
Relborn wrote:
So why not just generate some balanced cards ? Then both factions would be done justice and it would be a great solution IMO
I think the problem is what constitutes a set of balanced cards. I've considered this myself and its virtually impossible to generate say 12 or even 24 balanced results.
But if it can be done with a handicap table, where you make a roll and take the result, how much more difficult could that be for cards ? Maybe I just do not see the problem, because I did not try to make a new set of cards ...

The biggest difference was the if I have random event that gives me 10K after the game but you can't see that its not 'Is it a TD?' or somesuch then you have to be more careful to expect the unexpected.

I am not saying that the cards were balanced or should be changed but even those against the cards identify that the unknown element makes a massive difference (even if that is why they don't like them)

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:26 pm

Cards or handicap - if its worthwhile having and not completely useless it going to be "unbalanced" (which is by its very nature a stupid statement!)

It boils down to "do you care so much about winning and being proved "better" than your opponent that you can't stomach losing a close game because of a card/handicap result?"

If so then you're in the wrong game! May as well not bother with the kick off table, or weather...

If crap happens - deal with it. If you lose because of a blitz/a card/weather/a dice roll!!! then tough, tough tough :p

Incidently in our league:

Games won and lost because of cards ~ 1 in 5

Games won and lost because of kick off result ~ 1 in 3 (usually blits or pitch invasion)

Hmmm.....

Blood Bowl isn't a game of strategy, its a game of fun and whacky surprises. And even in the "bad old days" good players still rose to the top. Then sat there! We had one who got 75% of all the trophies in the first 3 seasons. If cards had been massively "unbalanced" he couldn't have done this feat...

But anyway - cards will not be reprinted, I just want a better table! (Or we will just keep our cards

)

mikeyc222 · Post by **mikeyc222** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:01 pm

voyagers_uk wrote:I like it! Mikey just told a BBRC member what to expect in the rules review.

well, as per usual for me...open mouth, insert foot.

why am i suddenly remind of jack nicholson in "a few good men" when he said, "don't i feel like the f*cking a**hole."

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:14 pm

Relborn wrote: But if it can be done with a handicap table, where you make a roll and take the result, how much more difficult could that be for cards ? Maybe I just do not see the problem, because I did not try to make a new set of cards ...

That would work of course, but unfortunately the current handicap events aren't balanced either.

I'm not offering any solutions here as i haven't got any, its a horrible vicious circle which i want to get of

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:20 am

I honestly don't see the problem with unbalanced cards and handicap. S**t happens in real life - its how you deal with it that counts. Its not like you get "carded" every game and you still have to be a decent player to make the most of them...

AND you don't get either in tournaments - which is fine...!

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:42 pm

I like to think of Blood Bowl as a strategy game with dice, not a card game with dice and some strategy.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:32 pm

Skummy wrote:I like to think of Blood Bowl as a strategy game with dice, not a card game with dice and some strategy.

AMEN, Brother Skummy!!!!

Galak

And Noodle ... I allow cards in my league but I allow them in a way that makes them make sense.
Cheerleaders can be used to roll to get Grab Bag or Random Event cards
Asst Coaches can be used to get Pre-Match Prep and Dirty Tricks
Wizards can be used to get Magic Item cards.

This allows the cards into the game in an extremely limited but meaningful fashion ... the coaches in my league have really liked this system ... voting it in without question in each of the last two seasons.

The system also makes for some interesting team development strategies ... check out the Animal House roster:
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL2/Season3/AnimalHouse.htm

He's sunk 19 points of TR into trying to get cards for his team when he plays games. Makes getting cards another part of the tactics of the game instead of an automatic freebie in the game.

Galak