the fabled sixteen sided die

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:31 pm

Dark Lord wrote:Could you please show some proof that this guy did patent this?

And that the patent was approved?

having not mailed the guy directly I can only go on what I remember neoliminal saying based on his direct contact.

never claimed to be an expert.

although the whole idea of not selling something but stealing the idea - surely that isn't right? then hordes of companies could steal say chemical processes for making nylon, owned by dupont IIRC, then make it for free. which blatantly does not happen since my mate is licensing manger for dupont - he IS an european, and DOES deal with the US patent side of things too.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:41 pm

but you are stealing it for manufacture and not personal use.

See in my country we are free to do anything in our own homes we want as long as we aren't hurting anyone else.

If a US citizen made a 16 sided die and used it everyday there is not a damn thing this guy who supposedly owns the patent could do about it as long as the person didn't sell it.
Now if he was making the dice and gluing them to toilet seat and selling it as a butt massager he would be in trouble.

Not only that but I seriously doubt his patent has been approved on something so basic. The USPO doesn't hand those things out as willy nilly as some people think. You have to have something very unique to get one with any kind of speed.

'Ed Basha' · Post by **'Ed Basha'** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:28 pm

thanks guys, and for the record, these will be for my leagues own use, and never sold...perhaps given to other bb players as gifts or tournament giveaways...mostly an excuse to have some fun casting things...

And I seriously doubt that the originator could prove he had anything like enough of an original idea to meet the stringent requirements to get a patent on this die. He may just have a copyright on the design.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:45 pm

This German shop: http://www.without-name.de/ has a D16 (called W16, WÜR-W16) for only 1,25 Euro and it's located in Mannheim. I'll try to find out if they really carry them or if it's a mistake and try to get a bunch (it's a well known Fantasy Store in Mannheim).

Shipping would be 7 Euro ... so at least MUCH cheaper than the US store.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:54 pm

he may have a copyright on the specific dimensions of the die... but who knows... i think tsr tried in the past to sue people over the use of polyhedral dice and failed miserably... i'd be surprised if patents were viable for such a thing given that tsr didn't go get them to help their cause (and back in the day, tsr's legal team could go toe-to-toe with the nefarious bunch gw has these days... we're talking about a company who tried to copyright the word "nazi" for pete's sake)...

anyway, the point of this post wasn't to speculate on the law, given that i don't really know it, but rather to point out that spincasting such a dice in metal is going to result in a die that is far from accurately random... even assuming you could craft a master which was properly balanced and weighted, the nature of rubber molds and centrifugal casting will result in a slightly different shape every single cast... some die will be irretrievably irregular in their rolling characteristics.... while a spincast of a die with aonly a few sides might result in a die which was only barely perceptably flawed, one with such narrow sides as a d16 and such a slim margin for error is going to pose some tremendous hurdles...

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:57 pm

Could you please show some proof that this guy did patent this?

And that the patent was approved?

Another European expert on the USA.

Never said I was an expert on the USA.

Escpecially not on US patent law. too much case law I can't remember.

I actually got two or three of those patents. I will try to find out tomorrow whether they are approved. And I will scan those for you tomorrow and PM you. Null problemo.

Sputnik

P.S.: as for the source: directly US PTO!

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:56 am

Indigo wrote:I remember Neo looking into it for the NAF and the issue was because the die was a patented method for generating a random number for 1 to 16 - so attempting copy something that does that job will be in breach of the patent.

Maybe make one that generates a number from 0-15?

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:58 am

Has anybody patented 16 counters in a cup?

'Ed Basha' · Post by **'Ed Basha'** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:30 am

I was going to go with a very old and traditional solid mold casting around around a central steel core. It's harder to explain than to do, and like I said, this is only for the fun of doing it, if the dice are fairly accurate in their randomness, then I may use them....

as for patenting a device that generates a random number, it would then be impossible to sell a computer or a scientific calculator, since both are devices capable of generating any range of random number you desire.

as well as a deck of cards numbering 1 through 16 or anything similar...

dice have existed for millenia, and I believe the us patent is only good for 17 years at most...so likely this gentleman is a holder of the us copyright on the style and design of this die, and therefore I could not sell them in the us withour infringing.

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:44 am

'Ed Basha' wrote: as for patenting a device that generates a random number, it would then be impossible to sell a computer or a scientific calculator, since both are devices capable of generating any range of random number you desire.

it's the METHOD used to generate the number, not the fact it's a random number. As has been pointed out before polyhedral dice have been made by many people many times before so in effect it's probably too late for anyone to patent them. However, the d16 is a new one (arguably never needed before) hence the whole issue.

and since patents last 50 years it's likely ones on decks of cards ran out a long time ago, like in cowboy times

(Again - they were likely never patented in the first place).

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:47 am

heh and as DW says what's wrong with using counters, or even the barbaric uncivilised method of rolling a d6 then a d8

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:35 pm

Sounds like the guy who bought the moon, and is now selling deeds for it.

True story...

ORTHODUB · Post by **ORTHODUB** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:38 am

Bit off topic but how does the naf copy the blocking dice without any hassle for GW as they look exactly the same ?
Do they have licence holder agreement or something ?

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:37 pm

Dark Lord wrote:but you are stealing it for manufacture and not personal use.

See in my country we are free to do anything in our own homes we want as long as we aren't hurting anyone else.

I wish this were actually true.

If a US citizen made a 16 sided die and used it everyday there is not a damn thing this guy who supposedly owns the patent could do about it as long as the person didn't sell it.

That's a common misconception about our legal system. It's not true. It's only unlikely that you will get in trouble because the patent holder is unlikely to find out about it. The patent protects the inventors right to make money on the sale of his invention. Obviously if you copy his invention (and only used it in your home) he has lost the money he would have gained from selling it to you. You are liable for the cost of the item. It's true that if you sold it, he would be able to sue you for *more* money, because he would have lost more sales.

There is no "fair use" for patents.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:11 pm

It's only $5. It's too bad that they are only selling directly and not through wholesalers so my local gaming stores can't order them for less than $5 either.

I don't know about any patents this company may have. I think they must have something or someone else would make one but the market may just be so small that no one else has even bothered. The way I feel is that, if you can make one that works, good for you, do it. It's not like it's a critical piece of the game or anything. We build homemade pitches and dugouts and some even make their own minis. If you can make a decent die, use it.