MVP and Raise Dead

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:40 pm

He is not dead, he is resurrected and plays in another team.

But I see, we're turning in circles, as in every disputable rule, everybody should play as he/she/they like.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:34 pm

I totally agree with Ian.
and his explaination is clear

Lycos · Post by **Lycos** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:28 pm

Whilst I nearly always (no, make that always until now) agree with Ian, and he is my (and Cidervampire's) lge commish, having read thro all the comments on this, I am totally with Narkotic's view.

The rules are pretty clear about normal dead players being left on the roster to pick up a postumous MVP, but once the Undead raise him he surely becomes "other than a normal" dead player - in fact he becomes a Zombie.

I have read this thread twice to be sure of the opinions exchanged and I guess I see as pretty logical that he surely comes off the roster and goes on the undeads team. Well, thats my view and whoever said BB rules always followed logic.........

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:21 am

nuffle just wants a laugh

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:34 am

LRB pp40 - "The Most Valuable Player award is awarded randomly to one
player from each team, just so long as they were available to play in the match."

Dead players are normally eligable for the MVP. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

The new zombie is eligable for the MVP from his new team - as he was available to play in the match.

IMO you just have to think of them as 2 separate players.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:35 am

OK, I will just put together the uncontested facts:

1. One player from each team receives a MVP
2. a player that has was available for a team is eligible for a MVP from that team (even if newly created by ressurection)
3. dead players are eligible for a MVP
4. dead players are deleted from the roster in post match step 4 ("purchases/retirements")
5. Upon resurrection the player is placed in the new team immediately.

Putting all this together:
1. is a ressurected player dead in fact? should he be treated like a dead player (=gets removed from roster in post-match seq.)? or like a living player for example who has been revived by the Apo?
2. he has played for his former team = eligible for a MVP and he has played for his new team = eligible for a MVP. Does this contradicts the "one player per team gets a MVP" rule?
3. Is the award of a MVP tied to the appereance on the roster? If yes, does he appear twice then? Is he a different person? Does this makes sense as a game mechanic?

The problem is, there are no rules concerning MVPs for players who has switched teams during the match (except Thrudd, but he can't get a MVP). And resurrecting is in fact stealing a player from the opponent (without skills, though).

If I had to rule this question in my league I would say: he has switched teams, he is the same (but much uglier) person/entity, he is only eligible for the MVP of his final team bc. one MVP per team. I think this is a fuzz-free and common sense ruling. You can rule it differently according to several points mentioned above but would you be satisfied with such thing happening to you in a match?

[edited after ianwilliams' comment below]

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:22 am

IMO the easiest way to treat them is as two distinct players - then there is far less of an issue and it feels right to me to play them that way.

narkotic wrote:2. a player that has was available for a team is eligible for a MVP from that team (even if newly created by ressurection/rotter)

A new rotter wouldn't be eligable as they only "arrive" at the end of the game.

bluetooth · Post by **bluetooth** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:53 am

ianwilliams wrote:The new zombie is eligable for the MVP from his new team - as he was available to play in the match. IMO you just have to think of them as 2 separate players.

I agree.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:07 pm

hehehe, and to make it more complicated with that whole resurection stuff we had a thread elsewhere which was about what happens if your player with regeneration dies in a match against undead. He is dead, so the undead coach can get a free zombie, on the other hand he may regenreate at the end of the drive....

looks like a house rule heavy part of the LRB to me.

Maybe we should put it on the list for clarifications or rewriting of this part of the LRB.

Side note: I always miss in tourny packages whether the undead coach is allowed to raise a zombie for the reminder of the tourny match or not (it is clear that he cannot use the zombie in the next match since he was not on the original starting roster).

Sputnik

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:51 pm

Sputnik wrote: Side note: I always miss in tourny packages whether the undead coach is allowed to raise a zombie for the reminder of the tourny match or not (it is clear that he cannot use the zombie in the next match since he was not on the original starting roster).

If nothing else is mentioned in the tournament pack, i'd say that LRB rules apply, thus yes ... Even with the hiring of Wizards forbidden, the rules say that the necromancer is an essential part of the team and doesn't have to be hired. But I'll remember to add a clarification of this for the next rules set of MMM ...

MixX · Post by **MixX** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:12 am

Well, where does it say that the newly created zombie has to be removed from his old roster immediately? IIRC, it doesn't say so anywhere, and therefore he is still on his old roster as well as on the new one in the "Award MVP's" phase... I would say that he is eligible for an MVP from his old side, but I would ALSO say that he won't benefit from it (since it's really for the dead guy, not the undead guy!). So like it has been said, IMO think of them as two different players until rosters are updated.

Note: I think it DOES say that the coach who raise the player should update his roster immediately, just not the owner of the now-undead player...

With regards to regenerating players, I simply have no idea, I guess it comes down to when you roll for regeneration (in my local league, I think we roll immediately. Noone plays undead though, so regenerating players are rare).

Force · Post by **Force** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:10 pm

This is plain cool, happens once in a million time and should be ruled that the Zombie gets the MVP(s) for the game no matter what side he was on at what point of time during the match.

However in temporal context, the experience points are added to the player immidiately after they accomplished something - you just get to count them and use them (skill rolls) after the game; Well even that is not true since in case of the MVP you don't even know that you got 5 SPP when you die (and walk to the other side - literally)

So in conclusion I'd say the Zombie gets ALL experience points he scored during the game he died in - including the MVPs from both teams if Nuffle wants him to. That kinda boosts resurrection a little that ain't a bad thing imho.

Kheldar · Post by **Kheldar** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:57 pm

The Zombie looses all his former skills and SPP, why should he keep the points from this match?

cidervampire · Post by **cidervampire** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:43 pm

How about this:
Both teams playing are Necro teams, Team A has 16 players, Team B has 15. A werewolf from team A is killed and raised by team B. Later in the game, a werewolf from team B is killed, can Team A raise the werewolf as they only have 15 players now or is the 16th space still filled up by the werewolf they initially lost and is now a zombie on Team B as they have not yet been taken off the Team A's roster?

Kheldar · Post by **Kheldar** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:48 am

No cause the dead player is still on the roster.