Separate Chaos Teams

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:20 pm

plasmoid wrote:3) New Daemon team.
We've been wavering between an all (minor) daemon team, and a daemon team with 50% cultist linemen. With the rules review 03, the all daemon team has been slightly weakened, which is just what the doctor ordered.
*0-4 80K Plaguebearers 5417 horn, foul A. - G, PH
*0-4 80K Bloodletters 5427 Piling On - G, ST, PH
*0-4 80K Daemonettes 7327 Claw, Gaze - G, AG, PH
*0-4 80K Pink Horrors 6338 block, big hand - G, PA, PH
ReRolls 80K, apoth, wizard, no big guy.

Yeah right.

Eight, count them, EIGHT players with ST 4. Add in the uber-sickness of four players with Claw on top of this, and you are only missing one thing. Best ball carrier in the game? Check. Give the Horror one skill (Sure Hands), and he is obscene.

On a related note, were BB ever to see an all-daemon team, I would like it to have completely new types of daemon.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:58 pm

Hi Nazgit.
Funny how playtest games in the hundreds doesn't measure up to insight like that.

>Yeah right. Eight, count them, EIGHT players with ST 4.
As opposed to the lizardmen with 6 ST4 and 1 ST5 - with AV9. And while they are "only" backed up by ST2 skinks, the MA8 and dodge skill of the skinks is very handy indeed.

>Best ball carrier in the game?
My mistake. Sorry. The Horror is AV7 like the other daemons.

While I'm sure you don't give a damn, let my list some problems for the daemons:
*They are a bashy team with AV7 - like the norse. Sure they can dish it out, but they also suffer. They may be stronger than the norse, but they can't dodge away from danger.
*They only have 4 players that are any good with the ball.
*Big guys eat daemons for breakfast. ST5 and mighty blow kills daemons.
*Daemons don't have a big guy.
*Daemons are very expensive, so unlike the norse they don't hit the ground running. They have to grow into their power - but in a long season the AV is a problem.

Cheers
Martin

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:25 pm

But plasmoid, all of the teams in your league are house-ruley and overpowered. Having seen most of your other team suggestions, it doesn't surprise me that you would come up with something like this. In a LRB environment, these guys would kick ass.

Ask any Norse coach going if he would swap Block and AG 3 for ST 4 and a lower AG. See what they say. Sure AV 7 means you have to be careful with these guys. You can't just throw them into danger like you would a BOB. So you don't. You play a slow grind, like Dwarfs, daring the opposing team to try and stand up to you. When they do, you use your ST 4 players to make room for some 2-dice blocks with your Daemonettes. Even one claw-modified knockdown per turn is going to rip shreds out of anyone. That's not even mentioning the normal knockdowns or the PO ones from the Bloodletters!

As for Big Guys, well, I'll take 8-1 odds any day of the week.

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:11 pm

I actually posted the same thing about Sure Feet on general before I saw this

I think Ag 1 and no sure feet with Frenzy represents their drunkenness fine without resorting to Negas. Negatraits are one of the worst ways to balance things.

Nazgit wrote:If you really wanted to have Centigors, then they must be stupid. You can't take the good parts of the WFB rules (Frenzy) and ignore the bad (Stupidity). I don't particularly like them, but if they were to be included...
Code: Select all
0-1  Centigor  100k  6 4 2 8  Bonehead, Frenzy, Sprint  {G,S,Ph}
Note that I deliberately didn't give them Sure Feet to represent their drunkeness, and to make them a bit different from Bull Centaurs.

As for your posts on Bestigors, they are no tougher than Gors, they are stronger and meaner. Not sure what changed in the new WFB book, but they were all T4...Gors, Ungors, Bestigors IIRC. I think Gors should be S4, Av 8. Let the whole list be Av 8. It can play like a slightly faster, slightly less resiliant Chaos team. They are after all still a Chaos team. As for not being different enough...4 Elf teams and 4 Undead teams

...there are plenty of new teams that play similar to the existing teams they spawned from.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:32 pm

Sixpack595 wrote:I think Gors should be S4, Av 8. Let the whole list be Av 8. It can play like a slightly faster, slightly less resiliant Chaos team. They are after all still a Chaos team.

What's the point? Just use the existing Chaos list. 6 4 3 8 instead of 5 4 3 9 is such a totally minute, insignificant change, that you might as well just play it as is, using beastman figures.

wishing · Post by **wishing** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:34 pm

Nazgit wrote:On a related note, were BB ever to see an all-daemon team, I would like it to have completely new types of daemon.

Now *that* would be cool. An undivided daemon type(s) specifically bred for playing blood bowl. I like the idea.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:51 pm

Exactly. Bloodletters etc. were bred for war, so what would the Chaos Gods come up with for BB...

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:39 pm

Nazgit wrote:What's the point? Just use the existing Chaos list. 6 4 3 8 instead of 5 4 3 9 is such a totally minute, insignificant change, that you might as well just play it as is, using beastman figures.

For the same reason we have 4 Elf teams.

Thats why I think the Centigors are a good idea. They make the team faster without increasing scoring ability. There are plenty of Fast agile teams, but the closest to a fast bashy team is Lizards, and they have Skinks who can go anywhere.

To be fair I'm not sure what I'd like to see as a 3rd player for Chaos. Ungors are not agile, and just as tough (close enough) to Beastmen. Giving them S2 is a bit too much of a hit. They are as strong as a man or Elf, but tougher. Beastmen already fit that bill. Bestigors are stronger (S4?) than Beastmen, but you say 5 or 6 438 is too close to CWs (not that I disagree they are close, but thats as close as pro elves are to HEs when it comes to linemen).

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:12 am

Hi Nazgit.
We play with several of the official teams, and the daemons aren't eating them for breakfast. (In fact - a better version of these daemons (old gaze and old PiOn), which are a bit on the powerful side, got completely 3-0 bashed by an ordinary orc team just yesterday. IMO, and off the record, the daemon coach is a significantly better coach).

>But plasmoid, all of the teams in your league are house-ruley and overpowered.
Nice.
Remember your rant against our Bretonnian team? As I remember it, there were more people giving the team positive comments than agreeing with you.
Nevermind.
You'll never test it so I can't convince you.
Martin

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:33 am

Pro Elves were just one of Jervis's pet projects. Don't use them as an excuse for woolly thinking!

We can do better.

As I have said time and time again in this thread, WFB stats should not translate directly into their BB equivalents on a player for player basis. You have to consider them over the whole team. High elves have M5 in WFB, and humans have M4. In BB, both have MV 6. In WFB, goblins, humans, elves, dwarfs, beastmen and many more races all have S3. You have to consider the impact of a particular profile on the team as a unit, rather than just an individual player.

The Ungors we would see in a BB team have not walked off a battelfield and onto the pitch. This is an alternate universe remember. These are professional sports-creatures. They will use their natural physical attributes to determine their role within the team. Think about human catchers - they have ST 2. By your logic, that should never be allowed, since in WFB all humans have S3. I am trying to think of these guys as BB players first. That is how it works. Scouts become runners - ghouls, gutter runners etc. Ungors are the light, auxillary troops in the Beastman army, so it makes sense that they should have a similar role in a BB team. But the actual stats and rules we use to express this role have to be determined by the BB rules system. NOT by comparison to WFB statlines. Those were designed to work in a completely different setting. They are our inspiration; yes. But they do not directly translate into BB. They have no bearing for us. Am I making any sense here?

As for Centigors, well, I'll tell you why I don't like them. The point of this (now lengthy) topic is to come up with a team that we can submit to the BBMag or FanaticMag. Maybe, in our wildest dreams, they might make it experimental. Or use our team to inspire some other experimental Beastman team. High hopes, I know. But that is what motivates these kind of discussions, after all. Centigors are wacky and house-ruley, and would lower the viability of any submission. They are a marginal troop type in the WFB army anyway. That is why I don't like them. Just my opinion.

But I am listening to you. AV 8 accross the board makes a lot of sense. So....

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:36 am

Code: Select all

0-12 Beastman  60k   6 3 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-2  Ungor     80k   7 2 3 8  Dodge, Sure Hands  {G,A,Ph}
0-4  Bestigor  100k  7 3 3 8  Block, Horns  {G,S,Ph}
Re-rolls = 60k
Minotaur Big Guy

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:02 am

Hi Nazgit.
I'll pm you rather than debate the team here.
talk to you soon,
Martin

Blammaham · Post by **Blammaham** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:55 pm

I would be tempted to go 8-2-3-7 on the Ungor. I think it would play as a vastly different Chaos team.S.

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:14 pm

I hear ya, but using the human example, why use Ungors to begin with? Humans don't need another species to fill the roles why should Beastmen? Why not:

Beastman team:

0-2 Runner 7338 Sure Hands, Horns 80K
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block, Horns70K
0-12 Lineman 6338 Horns 60K

RRs 60K

Nazgit wrote:The Ungors we would see in a BB team have not walked off a battelfield and onto the pitch. This is an alternate universe remember. These are professional sports-creatures. They will use their natural physical attributes to determine their role within the team. Think about human catchers - they have ST 2. By your logic, that should never be allowed, since in WFB all humans have S3. I am trying to think of these guys as BB players first.

As for the Centigors, I like them because the modeling would be cool and they would add more variety to the list. Also when the topic was revived it was in the unofficial thread...I'm not sure any team will be added unless they do the figs for them first, no matter how good the rules are.

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:11 pm

Code: Select all

0-12 Beastman  60k   6 3 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-2  Bestigor  100k  6 4 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-2 Centigor   130k  6 4 1 8 Frenxy, Sure Feet, Sprint {G,S,Ph}
Re-rolls = 60k
Minotaur Big Guy

Basically it's the chaos team now but instead of Chaos Warriors you get the Beastigor and Centigor with no Ogre/Troll access.

I like it