Removing the dice-rolls from the negatraits

[Mirascael]

[quote="David Bergkvist"]* Drop their access to general skills[quote]
Wouldn't work, since there aren't enough strength-skills.

[Mirascael]

It's a bad way to change the general rules just in order to make a negatrait concept work, it's like patchworking. Keep the rules simple and remove any exceptions.

I agree with you, but...

... isn't this just what happened recently when Pro became a trait? A minor skill changed into a trait, because it was too good on Big Guys?

[Mirascael]

I think half the fun of BGs at the moment is when the BH player fails that crucial roll...

Agreed!
Just make Bonehead-, Really Stupid-, and Stand Up-Rolls unrerollable (no Pro, no Leader) and force Minos (must move first) to take a Block action when standing next to an opposing player. Simple and easy. My 2p.

[crazylegs]

The diceless solution I've been thinking about is similar to ones above:

Big Guy (trait) = Can't use rerolls Team/Leader. Skill access is limited
to Strength, except Big Guys on teams with Physical trait
access can get Physical traits. Big Guys
also advance on double SPP break points... 12, 32, etc.

Ogre - cost +10K
Troll - cost +20K
Rat Ogre - cost +20K
Mino - cost +20K
Krox - cost +10K
Tree - cost +20K

Big Guy's physical abilities are what make them good bloodbowl players,
not their training... thus no General skills. This makes Big Guys tough &
cool, but their unable to ever get Pro, and the difficulty of getting Block
will keep them from becoming monsters that can singhandedly cripple a
team. They'll do what I think they were meant to do... add the fear a big
monster who it is very difficult to outstrength to your team.

[David Bergkvist]

The problem:
- There are enough ST4-players, so that a ST4-Big Guy wouldn´t be anything than another bashing-position. Then you could remove BGs alltogether.

Big guys under this suggestion would still have mighty blow, which make them stand out. It would also be possible to compensate by giving them some other unique skill that non-big guys don't have, like foul appearance (big guys are large and fearsome) or break tackle (who'd stand in the way of a big guy?) or stand firm (flesh golems have this, however, so it wouldn't be completely unique).

Also, some teams don't have ST 4 bashing positions (humans and skaven, for example), so for them, a ST 4 big guy would still be unique.

- Dropping MB seems wierd, because it shows the brute strenght of those creatures.

Their brute strength would be shown by the fact that big guys under this suggestion would still have ST 5, which nobody else has. You're not complaining about the fact that big guys don't have stand firm, despite the fact that most players wouldn't be able to push them back. If every player had to start with every skill and trait that seems apropriate for them to have fluff-wise, that wouldn't leave any room for improvement.

- Restricting the Access to General skills would do the trick IMO. Because a BigGuy without block is a turnover waiting to happen. It would fit, that those creatures aren´t so much into technique and depend on their muscles.

I agree. However, it would not be sufficient, since that would mean they'd have no drawback in the first games until they get their first SPP roll. Keeping their lack of ability to use re-rolls could do the trick. Or combining this with their removal of of mighty blow.

* Drop their access to general skills

Wouldn't work, since there aren't enough strength-skills.

But that would be easily be remedied, for example, by adding one short sentence in the star player roll section:
"If there are no skills for a player to pick, they can choose a general skill".

I think lack of strength skill is a bad reason to drop the idea of dropping general access for big guys. There might be reasons to drop the idea (not that I've heard one), but that's not one.

[Mirascael]

* Drop their access to general skills

Wouldn't work, since there aren't enough strength-skills.

But that would be easily be remedied, for example, by adding one short sentence in the star player roll section:
"If there are no skills for a player to pick, they can choose a general skill".

I think lack of strength skill is a bad reason to drop the idea of dropping general access for big guys. There might be reasons to drop the idea (not that I've heard one), but that's not one.

This point has been discussed before in the Ogre-Team thread. As far as I remember, it was made clear that such a ruling is excluded. Else it would be my favourite solution too.

[Sixpack595]

OK, I hate the idea of Str 4 BGs...Mummies, BoBs, Saurus etc. make it unacceptable to me.


As for the rest I think losing General access is a good balance. BGs are not that great till you get a couple skills on them, especially without access to RRs. By allowing access to General (or even any) when you run out of skills you eliminate the problem of too few Str skills, and encourage some less common skill choices.

- Restricting the Access to General skills would do the trick IMO. Because a BigGuy without block is a turnover waiting to happen. It would fit, that those creatures aren´t so much into technique and depend on their muscles.

I agree. However, it would not be sufficient, since that would mean they'd have no drawback in the first games until they get their first SPP roll. Keeping their lack of ability to use re-rolls could do the trick. Or combining this with their removal of of mighty blow.

* Drop their access to general skills

Wouldn't work, since there aren't enough strength-skills.

But that would be easily be remedied, for example, by adding one short sentence in the star player roll section:
"If there are no skills for a player to pick, they can choose a general skill".

I think lack of strength skill is a bad reason to drop the idea of dropping general access for big guys. There might be reasons to drop the idea (not that I've heard one), but that's not one.

[narkotic]

In addition to all these diceless/lesser dice suggestions there is the need to remove the possibility of ST increases on a skill roll, else a ST+1 BOB or Saurus will be 500% better than any Big Guy and gives the edge to the team who had some really lucky skill rolls.

[Circular_Logic]

That´s right, but there is also an advantage for the team, that rolls no '1' on the pitch...