Separate Chaos Teams

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:20 pm

I see the point of the 2+2 roster to keep the team at 4 ST 4 with a bit more speed, it's possibly the more balanced option. In fact i'm not even sure that on this roster the Bestigors need to be AG 2, the fact that you must pay extra for the Centigors provides the balancing factor.

AG 2 for the Centigors is a must as they are fast enough to provide easier scoring possibilities otherwise.

My version added Centigors because I didn't like seeing the drop in numbers of the Bestigors and because the models looked kind of ST 3 with horns to me.

This means given the ball they are less able to go it alone because of the lower ST, and also Frenzy makes them less reliable at Blitzing out of tackle zones without a run-up at this ST.

I was aiming to give the team a speed boost without giving fast scorers too easily. On a ST4 version Break Tackle in the first 2 skills means that this version is probably more mobile than a ST 3 equivalent.

Obviously my first roster gave without taking anything away so -1 AG to the Bestigors is needed to reduce ball handling and mobility around the core of the line and hopefully provide some balance.

I could live without Frenzy on both versions although it does fit the fluff and IMO is good but sometimes hard to manage on a ST3 player.

I think both versions of the roster are viable though, hopefully my league mates will think them balanced enough to test when we have a league rules review next.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:13 am

This is a good idea for a beastman team, it should be playtested and then sent into Fanatic as an article for FanaticMag. Just need to come up with a better idea for all Chaos human team, I like something closer to the 2ed version than just adding Marauders to replace beastmen (don't know how that would work without being too similar to reg human team).

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:25 am

Hi all,
a few comments:
IMO, the classic chaos team has 2 trademarks:
* (4) ST4 players who can actually carry/protect the ball. (shared with vamps).
* ST skills on everybody. (shared with dwarfs (almost)).

IMO, the beastman team doesn't have to have 4 ST4 players. Whats wrong with a little variety on a variant team

I'd rather see the centigors be fast than strong - I mean, a horse should be able to keep up with a gutter runner! I'm talking lucky luc fast here.

So how about
0-16 60K Beastmen 6338 horns G+ST+PH
0-2 100K Bestigor 6428 horns G+ST+PH
0-2 100K Centigor 8328 horns, sprint G+ST+PH
70K rerolls, Minotaur big guy, normal wizard and apoth.

(Formula for centigor is 50K, MA +30K, AG -20K, skills +40K. So thats 100K if they don't get the horns discount that beastmen get.)

Cheers
Martin

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:58 am

That is fast

You're right there is no need to have as much ST on the variant team although I am concerned that without a core of stronger players the team will not be competitive - I guess that's what playtestings for.

I'm not sure I like Sprint without Sure Feet on the Centigor. IMO that's just asking to fall over although I guess with MV 8 it wouldn't be used as much as MV 6 anyway.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:06 pm

this is silly I think chaos should be one big team not lots of seperate ones

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:44 pm

The strength disadvantage can be somewhat offset by the Horns - and speed helps.

Grumbledook, Nurgle's Rotters opened the door on this sort of thing. Unless the BBRC comes out and says they don't want any more Chaos variants, I think you'll see a lot of this in the future.

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:47 pm

I prefer Gken's, but don't have a big problem with Munkey's either. I like the idea of 4 Str 4 guys just to geep them bashy. With only 2 Str 4 they become a weaker team since no one else has Block or scoring type skills. I see them as still being a grind you down, hard hitting but low scoring team. They should be less resiliant, but faster than current (or Marauder based) Chaos. As was mentioned before Centigors could also lose Sure Feet to reflect the fact they are all drunk.

gken1 wrote:
Munkey wrote:
Code: Select all
0-12 Beastman  60k   6 3 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-4  Bestigor  100k  6 4 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-2 Centigor   120k  6 3 2 8 Horns, Frenzy, Sprint, Sure Feet {G,S,Ph}
Re-rolls = 70k
Minotaur Big Guy
it definitely is a chaos + team because you get 4 beastigors which are equal to chaos warriors + 2 more positioinals in the centigor.
Code: Select all
0-12 Beastman  60k   6 3 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-2  Bestigor  100k  6 4 2 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-2 Centigor   130k  6 4 2 8 Frenzy, Sprint, Sure Feet {G,S,Ph}
Re-rolls = 70k
Minotaur Big Guy
how about that?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:33 pm

Hi all,
I really prefer a faster ST3 centigor over a slower ST4 one.
I know that the following is not in any way a strong argument, but merely a "feel":

Since this beastman team is not meant to replace the old chaos team, I think that there should be something clearly different about it. Preferably something that would make you go: I want to try out these players so bad that It doesn't matter that it looks a lot like chaos.
With skaven, it is the gutter runners that attract me, and I think that the lightning fast blitzer centigor could do that for the beastmen.

Also, while it may not be fair, I think that the ST4 centigor feels too much like a bull centaur.

A super fast blitzer would give the beastmen something very different from the 4 bashers of the normal chaos team.

But thats just my 2 cents
Cheers

Martin

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:27 pm

plasmoid wrote: Also, while it may not be fair, I think that the ST4 centigor feels too much like a bull centaur.

Cheers
Martin

cuz it is like a bull centuar.

yours would give chaos 1 turn score capability.....definitely a no no!
first doubles vll and a move upgrade is ugly!

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:45 pm

I would also prefer a ST3 Centigor, I agree with Plasmoid that the ST4 version is a bit too Bull-centaury but...

I don't like the speed of Plasmoids version much either and I hadn't even thought about 1 turn scorers. I wouldn't want to see another one, especially not on this team.

Bottom line is to add something the team must also lose something. I see Horns and ST/PHY access as the foundation of the team so I guess the only things that can be dropped are AG from the bestigors like my original post, numbers like GKens version.

Despite my worries about a lack of strength without 4 core players I wouldn't mind seeing a version with ST3 Centigors and only 2 Bestigors at least for playtesting.

Or alternatively how about the most radical idea I've come up with yet?

Code: Select all

0-12 Beastman  60k   6 3 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-4  Bestigor  90k  6 3 3 8  Horns, Block  {G,S,Ph}
0-2 Centigor   90k  6 3 2 8 Horns, Frenzy, Sprint, Sure Feet {G,S,Ph}
Re-rolls = 60k
Minotaur Big Guy

Cheaper players would allow for a slightly stronger starting team, but the lack of ST4 would limit them a bit long term.

I think this would play closer to a variant of Chaos Dwarf than chaos with all ST3.

Not really sure if I think the team will work or not but it's another idea to add to the mix. Flame away

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:09 pm

Oh come on. Don't call it an OTS.
Every team with something of MA7 can develop an OTS pretty easily if it has access to AG skills.

The centigor doesn't have access to agility skills and has an AG of 2. Unlike other one turners (sure feet, leap, good AG), this one will hardly ever succeed.
Martin

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:51 pm

if you want to make a st3 positional....don't call it a centigor.

warhammer gor (beastman) st3
beastigor st4
centigor st4

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:12 pm

I think we've come to the end of the line here, there's basically three of us going in slightly different directions and all promoting our own personal ideas.

Without some kind of compromise, which is looking increasingly unlikely, we'll never come to any kind of consensus.

Personally I guess I fall between the two extremes, I'd rather see a ST3 Centigor out of preference but I don't like the speed of Plasmoids variant.

I will concede that the easiest way to balance the team is to drop two Bestigors to add the Centigors, of either ST, although ST4 again I guess is the easy option.

Perhaps we should head back to our leagues and persuade them to let us playtest these teams a bit before we continue this discussion?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:58 am

Or use team creator to playtest them on Fumbbl.

That way all 3-4 of the interested parties could help with the playtest.

Perhaps we could set up an email chain to discuss and playtest?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:03 pm

why no gors?