After 10 years of playtest

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:38 pm

Hi all,
gken said:
>what does this mean:
>CTR special rule: The Chaos Dwarf team is arguably the best team on a low TR environment.
>To balance this out, the hobgoblin linemen do not get any bonus skills. they never gain skills?

CTR signifies a rule specifically for the short weekend tournaments that we play - i.e. this rule is not meant to apply in a normal league.
In CTR tournaments, you 1200K for your team and a skill on each player, except on hobgoblins.
The CD team had dominated the tournaments consistently for a while, so something had to be done.
Cheers
Martin

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:49 pm

Hi all,
Xtreme said:
>Dark elf Runners YEAAA!

>I'm suprised that the strength skills for the dark elf blitzers hasn't become a problem.

Well.
We had a previous version where the team had assassins (linemen with poisened daggers) instead of throwers - and that was over the top.
The new version works a lot better, but admittedly, our dark elf team is a little better than the official one.

It is worth pointing out that an elf team without passing skills does have it's own problems. Hiding a thrower with the ball in your backfield, and then throwing for a TD on turn 2 isn't a safe bet for the darkies. They usually have to run the ball, which means that they can lose it.

Also, when we made the change, dark elfs only had 2 blitzers, so trading passing skills on 2 players for strength skills on 2 players seemed fair.
Now that the darkies have 4 blitzers, they've gained more than the official team.

I have seriously considered moving the ST-skills to the (2) witch elfs, but some coaches have complained that that would infringe on the piling on+jump up turf of the norse. I don't know yet.......

That being said, the darkies definately do not dominate the CTR tournaments.
We also use the roster in our league, and while the team is quite strong, we've had no reason to change it.

Martin

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:56 pm

Hi all,
Skummy said:
>The more leagues I see, the more convinced I am that a new concept - and especially a new team
>- needs to be playtested out in as many leagues as possible before it is declared okay.

Fair enough. But we've done the work that we can do.
We've had 4 high elf teams, each playing for around 40 games, and no complaints.
With 4 different coaches, and a lot of opponents, we've got lots of data.

Grotemius said:
>My problem is indeed a basic one, In the long run elves score more touchdowns and grab more spp's
>than bashing teams. This should be equalized by receiving more casualties.
>If you give them av 9 this is not going to be an equaliser anymore.

Well, the high elfs don't score as easily as the other elf teams. So apart from that one mandatory completion, they don't score tons of spp's. Their total lack of access to strength skills also means that they don't score spps on casualties the way that bashy teams do.
They may be able to survive a beating, but they won't be pulling any 1 turn scores either.

Martin

Pardus · Post by **Pardus** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:06 pm

sounds like people are forgetting that speed and agility make high scoring teams, not just agility

grotemuis · Post by **grotemuis** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:31 pm

you still have str 3 movement 7 catchers! now with an av of 8!

they allready had the best catchers in the game and you made them better.

also you can always get a movement increase, but not a AV increase

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:37 pm

plasmoid wrote:Fair enough. But we've done the work that we can do.
We've had 4 high elf teams, each playing for around 40 games, and no complaints. With 4 different coaches, and a lot of opponents, we've got lots of data.

Do you have the data in a digital format? I'd be interested to take a look at it, if possible.

Speed is important to have with AG, but it's also good to remember that an Elf team can still spread around SPP's with passes in a league.

From the sound of it, I'm not sure your league uses regular SPP progression, so this might not be a problem for you.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:28 am

Hi Grotemius,
>you still have str 3 movement 7 catchers! now with an av of 8!
>they allready had the best catchers in the game and you made them better.

Grotemius, the official dark elf team has 4 of these 7348 players, and the official high elf team has 2. Namely the blitzers. While the blitzers don't have catch, they do have block, which is also a very useful skill.
So it is not a unique statline, and we certainly did not invent it for elf teams.
Cheers
Martin

grotemuis · Post by **grotemuis** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:08 pm

plasmoid:
that was not what I meant. It was a reply to the guy who said you need agility and movement to make a high scoring team. I was arguing that they still have enough movement.

the differnce between movement 7 or 8 is not that big, the difference between av 7 or 8 is a big one

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:02 pm

I think the HE change should work out ok

The movement between 7 and 8 can still be quite large, especially on catchers who often need all their movement to run around obstacles once they have the ball. The difference between mv 5 and 6 on most of the team and esp the throwers is much larger and makes them weaker; weak enough to compensate the cathcers.

They just get more blitzers without block and some slower blockers instead of blitzers

Though I don't like the team, I think it could work fine

R

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:11 am

Hi all,
just reviving this after quite a while.
The reason: The new season has started and I'm coaching high elfs.

I'm one of the top end coaches of my league, and so far I'm 2-1-3

I just wanted to point out that people often miss the significance of low MA end few rerolls. Unlike other elf teams I have to move around slowly, or risk lots of GFIs. Also, not having dodge on "the best catchers in the game" is a massive setback.

I'm confident that I'll do better once I my team gets pumped up, but as a starting team it is not one of the easiest teams to play.
Cheers
Martin

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:26 am

Hi all,
last weekend I took the team to create a neat document with all of our 24 tweaked rosters. (I think it is 7 tweaked, 5 new, and 12 untouched).

The lay out is just like the ones in BB Handbook and Deathzone. Full color, logos, and everything. IMO, they look pretty good.
Check out the zipped file:
http://home.worldonline.dk/nyskes/bbowl/CTRteamzip.zip

Cheers

Martin

lionwarrior · Post by **lionwarrior** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:24 pm

Plasmoid, the CLBBBL has a much higher power level than most leagues.. most ideas i see from you (while balanced in their "natural" environment) cannot be used in other leagues - this makes it hard to give an accurate assesment of the ideas you post, for someone who doesn't have experience from the CLBBBL.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:19 pm

Hi Lionwarrior,

A few things worth noting:

1. Even though the CLBBBL is "special" it does use some of the original rosters, (or even weaker versions of the original rosters). So when our homemade teams balance with the official ones (admittedly, under strange rules) it is at least an indication that things might be okay under normal rules.

2. The actual team lists that you see here are not from CLBBBL, they are from CTR (Copenhagen Tournament Rules). This means that while these teams were developed from teams tested in the CLBBBL, they have been tweaked and changed to fit into something close to the official GW tournament environment.

3. Our CTR tournaments are still mostly dominated by wood elfs, skaven, and chaos dwarfs. The tweaked teams can compete with the other teams - but are not guaranteed to win anything. (We've used games played in CTR tournaments to reduce the power of any offending teams.)

So - in conclusion - If you see something you like, feel free to give it a go in your league. I'd love to hear feedback from other leagues - and you are welcome to tweak offending teams to suit your fancy.

Cheers

Martin

lionwarrior · Post by **lionwarrior** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:04 pm

plasmoid wrote:Hi Lionwarrior,

A few things worth noting:

1. Even though the CLBBBL is "special" it does use some of the original rosters, (or even weaker versions of the original rosters). So when our homemade teams balance with the official ones (admittedly, under strange rules) it is at least an indication that things might be okay under normal rules.

2. The actual team lists that you see here are not from CLBBBL, they are from CTR (Copenhagen Tournament Rules). This means that while these teams were developed from teams tested in the CLBBBL, they have been tweaked and changed to fit into something close to the official GW tournament environment.

3. Our CTR tournaments are still mostly dominated by wood elfs, skaven, and chaos dwarfs. The tweaked teams can compete with the other teams - but are not guaranteed to win anything. (We've used games played in CTR tournaments to reduce the power of any offending teams.)

So - in conclusion - If you see something you like, feel free to give it a go in your league. I'd love to hear feedback from other leagues - and you are welcome to tweak offending teams to suit your fancy.

Cheers
Martin

Hi Plasmoid,

I think you're missing the point. You say that the "untweaked" rosters like woodies are on even powerlevel with your "homemade" teams. How many wardancers can a coach have on an "untweaked" team in your league?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:32 pm

Hi Lionwarrior,
let me start by saying that in my experience/league, wood elfs is one of the best teams. The homemade and tweaked teams are not on the same power level - they are weaker. But they are good enough to compete with them.

Anyway - yep. In my league wood elfs have up to 3 wardancers and 5 catchers, but only, only, if they give up their treemen. And many (of our) wood elf teams don't, because they need a treeman to survive. So you'll see more standard wood elf teams than not in my league.

That rule goes for any team in the league: Give up a big guy to gain 2 other position players. Generally speaking, our team rules are built to allow a few extra options - but only by giving up something else. And one of the rosters you can create is the official one. (Well, except for 1 or 2 teams).

And, I guess you missed my point when I said that these teams are not for CLBBBL. They are for CTR, and in CTR, they are played exactly as written: 2 wardancers and no extras.

Cheers

Martin

PS, I'd be more than happy to discuss the tweaks made to individual rosters.