Skill choice for an all ogre team

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:41 am

Xtreme wrote:I think Galak forgot that you aren't taking any Gobbos. As pass would help with throwing them.

Oh sorry ... forgot that fact ... I love my TTM plays and Pass is vital to them.

Galak

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:07 am

Is general skill access really a problem on a TR100 starting team?

I can see if you are in a league without a set schedule that you could advance them quickly by playing many games with them, but in a 10 -16 schedule game I don't see how this team is any different to a developed elf team. Elves are WAY better later in the season then they are in the beginning.

I understand ST5 makes them really hard hitting, especially once a few of them get block, but they still bonehead often enough to slow their game down.

Their movement is not great at MV5.

I can't see how this team can be THAT good that they would need to have access to general skills removed from their profiles.

Anyway, for skill recommendations I would suggest breaking up your players into a couple of different positions as well.

Lineman - Block, Guard, Tackle (Standfirm on doubles)
Runners - Surehands, Block, Break Tackle
Blitzers - Block, Break Tackle, Strip Ball (Frenzy on doubles)

I would also try to get one person Kick (and Leader for doubles.)

I don't think that it is worth it to develop a catcher for this team. Their running game will be key.

Mad Banker · Post by **Mad Banker** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:54 am

leblanc13 wrote:I don't think that it is worth it to develop a catcher for this team. Their running game will be key.

Exactly, an all Ogre team is THE Running Team, that's their only viable option...
I've tried Teabag's formula for identifying Running and Passing teams (see this topic) with my Ogres and I'm under minus 300! Did you say Running?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:32 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:... in tournaments that give one skill per a game, the Big Guy 95% of the time gets Block.

I'm very strongly of the opinion that the rules for BB should not be changed to suit tournaments.

Tournaments are a specialisation of BB - and if they want to tweak the rules fine - but the emphasis must be on league play.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:27 pm

ianwilliams wrote:[I'm very strongly of the opinion that the rules for BB should not be changed to suit tournaments.

Tournaments are a specialisation of BB - and if they want to tweak the rules fine - but the emphasis must be on league play.

Ian ... if not one single tournament was ever run ... I would still be 100% in favor of ST only access for Big Guys and the Ogres on the Ogre team.

Galak

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:40 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:if not one single tournament was ever run ... I would still be 100% in favor of ST only access for Big Guys and the Ogres on the Ogre team.

So don't use tournaments to justify your proposal

I'm not sold on this change and IMO the change ought to be a more fundamental look at the costing of the BGs.

BGs are undepriced, in exactly the same way stars are. JJ's formula halves the cost over 100k, so where 5 points is 50k, 10 "points" is 100k, 14 points is only 120k.

The real cost of Ogres ought to 140k (i.e. according to JJ's formula they have 14 points) if you ignore the discount.

Bonehead (and probably the new WA) are too weak negative traits to justify the discount given to WA - if it counted as -1 in the formula instead of -2 then Ogres "real" cost is nearer 160k which IMO is probably a better reflection of their effectiveness to most teams.

I reckon 40k more for an Ogre or Krox, 30k more for RO, Minos & Trolls maybe 10k more would give a better balance to the game.

In 3rd ed cost wasn't so much of an issue, but now, especially if freebooting apoths are introduced money is tight almost right from the start. So cost is an issue. If costs went up it means much more of a sacrifice to get them to start (or early on) while later on rookie BGs aren't such an issue.

Ogre teams are a different issue - and I understand Fanatics desire to get a working team so they can sell the models - I think they have to accept that Ogres with the same profile as rookie Ogres on other teams probably won't work. The Ogres on Human teams are supposed to be relatively smart and capable after all.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:23 pm

Ian's hitting it on the head. Cost them out correctly and/or reverse the ruling allowing leader, pro and trophy rerolls to be used for them. If the problem is ST 5 players with block. If BG's are still as big a factor, then the problem is that we have ST 5 players with block - meaning we need to step back and revaluate whether or not we want to have them on the field at all - and IMO that includes Mummies.

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:49 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:I would still be 100% in favor of ST only access for Big Guys and the Ogres on the Ogre team.

IMHO, this would be a beautiful way to put a lot of the BG-issues behind us. It'd keep BGs a liability, and make them more of a risky bonus rather than a positional player. This and more without crippling them at all.

The only fluff issue I can see is that Frenzy Ogres/Trolls becomes impossible. That's a small loss for such a fine solution though.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:47 pm

Skummy wrote:and IMO that includes Mummies.

Ah ... but I'd make Mummies and Bull Centaurs ST access only also.

Galak

Xeterog · Post by **Xeterog** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:06 pm

What about BOB's and Sauri?

Say any str 4+ player can only have strength access.

I like the idea that Big Guys would be limited to strength skills only. It makes sense and the Fluff does say that the big guys are not reliable and that is why they aren't on every team..and any big guy team that forms doesn't do well at all--ever, (not start bad, then get unstoppable later)

I don't know about other players. Just because I suck against Undead teams I would greatly appreciate the mummies not getting general access..but I think my view is way skewed.

Bull Centaurs...they need the general skill access, IMO. They are you all around players on CD teams..can blitz, run and score (if they can get the ball that is).

I am just not convinced that players other than Big Guys should be restricted to strength only.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:40 am

Okay not the ST 4 players.

Okay why would I include Mummies and Bull Centaurs.

Every time you say something about Big Guys ... somelike Skummy brings up Mummies ... fine ... I'm all for throwing them in.

Now the Bull Centaur. The bottom line is that Chaos Dwarves are #1 on the list of rosters that bug the hell out of folks. I've seen MANY ideas to redo or revamp the team. Making Bull Centaurs have ST only access would really be me trying to SAVE the team in its current format ... believe it or not.

Galak

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:29 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:Every time you say something about Big Guys ... somelike Skummy brings up Mummies ... fine ... I'm all for throwing them in.

Excellent. It would be interesting to see playtest data on this.

The Bull Centaur is a funny player in a lot of ways. I don't believe he was desinged to be a superfast blitzer/ballcarrier for the Chaos Dwarf roster. Looking at the data from various sources, a strong case could be made for the roster being overpowered. I'm not certain that restricting them to Strength skills only is the way to go. The way I see it, lowering them to a 1 AG would alter them back to their original role on the team.

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:23 am

I agree with Skummy on this one. Give BC's AG1 and you have removed their role as a ball carrier. However at that point I would have to say that you should lower the cost to compensate for the loss of this ability.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:10 am

I don't think Mummies on the old Undead team were a problem - undead didn't dominate leagues and their low mobility and lack of support (no other strength skill access or S4 players) meant Undead didn't dominate.

Khemri are a different issue - and I don't believe allowing 4 on a team was going to work.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:42 pm

leblanc13 wrote:I agree with Skummy on this one. Give BC's AG1 and you have removed their role as a ball carrier. However at that point I would have to say that you should lower the cost to compensate for the loss of this ability.

The really funny thing is that with the current price break system, he wouldn't be terribly overcosted at 130k and a 1 AG. He costs out to 125,000 before the price break is calculated.