Skill choice for an all ogre team

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:47 pm

ianwilliams wrote:I don't think Mummies on the old Undead team were a problem

The Undead was extremely fortunate to still be alive as a team concept. If something minor effects the Undead ... (and this would be minor) ... I'm not horribly concerned. My focus is more the Khemri.

And I don't have a problem with BCs being AG 3. Just think if you restrict their access to Block and Sure Hands ... you make it a much larger deal to make them ball handlers.

Galak

Vero · Post by **Vero** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:33 pm

All for removing general-access from big guys as they should be an option, not mandatory members of team. Khemri should get something if their mummies lose general-access as the rest of the team is pretty poor. Maybe a bit better lino like 5328 skellie.

I wouldn't mind taking general-access from bulls if they got ag3 but otherwise they'd be overprised crap. Really don't see what's the problem with ag2 str4 ballcarriers. They aren't that hard to knock out and need three skills (block, sure hands and break tackle) to become good ball carriers and even more to become good blitzers.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:47 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Khemri are a different issue - and I don't believe allowing 4 on a team was going to work.

GalakStarscraper wrote:... My focus is more the Khemri.

Well we agree on something. What ever happened to giving them Foul Appearance instead?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:23 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Well we agree on something. What ever happened to giving them Foul Appearance instead?

Ahhhhhh ... I liked this idea and Chet agreed to have it tested in the MBBL. The 1st and 2nd edition Mummies had Foul Appearance ... just couldn't get it to have legs in committee I guess ... especially after Piling On was changed which was one of the major ways the Khemri team was dealing massive damage.

Galak

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:22 pm

Even if this might be somewhat redundant, but with regard to strength-access only, pact-teams and the game-balance in general:

1) I'm playing an old-world team for about 20 games now and whenever I acquire an ogre (never could think of a tree so far) he dies, niggles or the apoth fails or altogether. Without an ogre the old world roster seems perfectly balanced to me, I assume the same is true for chaos pact and lustrian. So the Big Guys appear to be the problem here.

2) Whenever Big Guys (especially with Block not to speak of Pro) participate in a game, the course of the game changes dramatically in a negative way. Basically they are powergamer tools which can cause tremendous problems to non-strength sides and hit teams into oblivion randomly. Even without block, turnover on a three-dice-block is almost as unlikely as rolling snakeeyes.

3) Big Guys have their place in the game, no doubt. But they should be a fluffy choice rather than a powergamer-tool in an all-out arms-race. The denial of general skills on regular rolls might achieve that Big Guys become the exception rather than the rule, something that would really make the game far more enjoyable. Furtermore, even with strength-access only, I'd like to see the ogre-team with Big Guys.

For Khemri it might be worth considering to decrease the Blitz-Ra armour back to AV 7. I've started playing with AV 7 Blitz-Ras and think that the roster has become significantly better with AV 8 Blitz-Ras how innocuos that change might seem on a first glance. AV 7 on all non-mummy players might be the proper way to go.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:21 pm

FA for the mummies was a good idea, and would make them slightly different than the standard bashy team. Oh well.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 pm

Skummy wrote: FA for the mummies was a good idea, and would make them slightly different than the standard bashy team. Oh well.

I think the fact that the Nurgle team was also being worked on at the same time helped kill this ... (ie a little too much FA around at the time). Guess it was just bad timing to be honest.

Galak

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:41 am

Why not just drop Mighty Blow? For the Khemri drop the cost 100k to compensate.

Still a rock hard team, but one that isn't going to massacre the opposition.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:22 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:Now the Bull Centaur. The bottom line is that Chaos Dwarves are #1 on the list of rosters that bug the hell out of folks. I've seen MANY ideas to redo or revamp the team. Making Bull Centaurs have ST only access would really be me trying to SAVE the team in its current format ... believe it or not.

Chaos Dwarfs are not overpowered in a developed league setting. They may be in TR100 (not sure about this, but i guess i'm the wrong guy to argue). Messing with the Bull Centaur will NOT save the team in the current format, it will destroy it. ST only access on Bull centaurs is just plain wrong and will take 50% of the fun out of playing this team. 60 or 70k RR cost is the way to go. This only affects starting teams and lowers the power level at lower TR and has almost no effect in the long run.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:45 am

I agree with Tim, at TR 175+, Chaos Dwarves have reached most of their potential and from that point of time/environment it is much harder to get the ball from a developed War Dancer than from a similar developed Bull Centaur for example.

On the same account why doesn't anybody cry for beefing up Chaos, they are soooooooooooooooooo weak at TR100. This is of course a short sighted view comparable with the fact that CDs can't really develop good players for winning/scoring besides the Bull Centaurs and as we know having all the points distributed to 2 key players is always very bad for a team in terms of strategy and longevity.

Stop tinkering around with the CDs and lose your tournament based bias, else at the end of the day the vase will be shattered on the ground and you can start again with the feeble roster they had originally (only Hobg & CDs)

And I'm really not fond of the fact that Bull Centaurs get dragged into almost every BB discussion at some point, regardless if it's a related topic or not...

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:46 pm

If we were only seeing Chaos Dwarves dominate in Tourneys, that would be one thing. But they do quite well in leagues, and have put together quite a record on fumbbl.

EDIT
(Before I get jumped on, I'd like to note that yes, Wood Elves have a better record on fumbbl and no, I don't think they need to get changed. They're notorious cherry-pickers and that's a different problem entirely.)

EDIT II
Purely out of curiosity, I decided to see what kind of games the top Wood Elf teams were accepting. It's possible to pull up the top 5 WE teams in fumbbl pretty easily, and you can look at their match records. The results might not surprsise you.

Team 1 - 15 Elf teams in past 20 games.
Team 2 - 15 Elf teams in past 20 games.
Team 3 - 6 Elf teams in past 20 games.
Team 4 - 13 Elf and 4 Skaven teams in past 20 games.
Team 5 - 16 Elf teams in last 20 games, including 14 Elf games in a row and counting.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:50 pm

Skummy wrote:If we were only seeing Chaos Dwarves dominate in Tourneys, that would be one thing. But they do quite well in leagues, and have put together quite a record on fumbbl.

Agreed ... they just VERY handily won the 3rd season of the MBBL as well. This is NOT a tournament bias Narkotic.

Galak

harald · Post by **harald** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:14 pm

The CDs are a very good team. 6 blockle dwarfs, 2 bullies and a troll/mino and two hobgobs for fouling. "Good enough for jazz".

If star players are allowed they have the de facto unstoppable HThark who can simply score TDs over and over and over again.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:04 pm

@Harald: the Htark issue is entirely different for me, as it merely proves that 50% of all Star Players are horrible broken and yes, Htark is one of the worst (in terms of broken I mean)

@Galak: I was curious to see the MBLL CD team. I don't know if the site is up-to-date but it seems that it was a 5 match league, right? (the team has a TR of 163) Both Tim and me pointed out that CDs tend to get worse and worse in the middle/long run compared to other teams and 5/6 matches are definitely too short to prove that CD are too good or too weak IMHO.
(and BTW are tourney length).

Furthermore CDs did not make it under the top5 in MBBL Season I and II. Getting the MBBL statistics chart, it shows that (if you ignore the pact teams) that CD have only the fourth best winning ratio after Amazons, Dwafs and Norse but are only 1.4% ahead of Lizardmen, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Orc and Khemri.

Summing up these numbers from MBBL it doesn't look like a dominating team to me...

Snarlton Heston · Post by **Snarlton Heston** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:10 pm

Ogres having only ST skills is like allowing elves to have only General skills.

I do appreciate you working on freeing my fully painted ogre team from the box where they have sat for over two years now! At least I have Gen Con! Keep it going guys!

Snarlton Heston
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Pro Ogres would be a great addition to the Pro Elves!