Skill choice for an all ogre team

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:07 pm

Actually, that's a great idea! How about we limit positional elves to agility only skills!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:51 am

Snarlton Heston wrote:Ogres having only ST skills is like allowing elves to have only General skills.

B*tch, b*tch, b*tch.

Your other option is to never have the team become official ... should I just go that route instead in the discussions?

I've seen developed Ogre teams ... SH ... they are not balanced in any sense of the word at all. So it comes down to two choice at this point:

1) ST only access on the Ogres
2) Drop the concept of the Ogre team forever from BB

I'll let you pick.

Galak

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:58 am

Whatever happened to positional ogres with really stupid? I'm assuming it was dismissed, but was that with or without playtesting?

DanielLaw · Post by **DanielLaw** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:23 am

In April 2004, GalakStarscraper wrote:So it comes down to two choice at this point:

1) ST only access on the Ogres
2) Drop the concept of the Ogre team forever from BB

I'll let you pick.

Galak

But last year, in the thread: OGRE Teams ... TBB PLEASE VOTE

First, Thadrin wrote:Losing Gen access isn't happenening. We suggested it ages ago, but the BBRC have said no.

Then, Xtreme wrote:Did the BBRC give a reason for not considering it?

In October 2003, GalakStarscraper wrote:Three in fact:
1) There are not enough Strength skills to fill out an Ogre who never rolls anything but a normal roll.
2) They didn't like the idea of more than one Ogre to begin with the further it moves from the Ogre stat line the more it lacks appeal.
3) No desire to create a non-Stunty player without access to General.

Galak

Aren't points 1 & 3 still problems for the BBRC?

gaijin

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:50 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Skummy wrote:Except for one little problem - what do you do when a BG gets his 5th normal skill?
Easy ... make a rule that simply say if you roll a normal skill and there are no available normal skills to take, the player may treat the skill roll as if he had rolled doubles instead.

Viola .. easy fix ... and since the ONLY place I've ever seen a 5 skill Big Guy was FUMBBL and OBBL ... I'm not going to lose a minute of sleep over such a rule.

The above is from May 30, 2004. Point 1 is addressed, and point 3 apperently isn't a factor any more.

As far as I'm concerned, the Ogre team has the same basic problem as the Vampire team. Both are supposed to be composed of ridiculously overpowered players that need special limitations placed on them to keep them from dominating a league.

DanielLaw · Post by **DanielLaw** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:53 am

I wouldn't mind ST only Big Guys. I don't think the team would stay over-powered. I just found it a little suprising that it suddenly seems to be such a viable change after previous opposition.
Big Guys probably shouldn't be skillful enough for things like Kick, Pass Block, Leader etc. Strength only fits their brutal/clumsy manner.

gaijin

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:53 am

Skummy wrote:EDIT II
Purely out of curiosity, I decided to see what kind of games the top Wood Elf teams were accepting. It's possible to pull up the top 5 WE teams in fumbbl pretty easily, and you can look at their match records. The results might not surprsise you.

Team 1 - 15 Elf teams in past 20 games.
Team 2 - 15 Elf teams in past 20 games.
Team 3 - 6 Elf teams in past 20 games.
Team 4 - 13 Elf and 4 Skaven teams in past 20 games.
Team 5 - 16 Elf teams in last 20 games, including 14 Elf games in a row and counting.

I think that Team 1 would be the Ashenvale Protectors.
Well, that particular team has been down to 4-5 players several times, only recentlyhave they been able to get up to 11+ players for the first time after a long time of hardship and suffering caused by "ageing", failed apoths and injuries. Actually, I have no idea why woodies are rated as one of the strongest sides at high TR anyhow. From my experience they aren't competitive at all in a high TR environment since AV 7 means that their annihilation is eventually inevatable. It's not just cherry-picking to deny challenges by MB/Tackle, RSC/Claw or DP-heavy opponents, it's not only even a matter of survival, it's simply too boring to participate in a game in which you'd have no players left on the pitch by turn 2 or 3. One part of this problem is the fact that (contrary to popular belief) woodie lineelves are actually utter crap. Overpowered Big Guys constitute another part of this problem. By no means would the Protectors accept a challenge by a team sporting a Block/Tackle/Frenzy Big Guy. Such a powergamer tool can entirly tear apart an AV 7 side on its own. Big Guys in Blood Bowl aren't needed and absolutely superfluous, they will remain for fluff-reasons and it might be wise to fix them properly insofar that you only would get one for fluff rather than powergaming.

-Edit-

A rather peculiar phenomenon:
Almost never are my Khemri, Lizardmen, and Orcs challenged by those basher-teams specialized on annihilating elves. You might wonder who the real cherry-pickers are.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:17 pm

gaijin wrote:
Thadrin wrote:Losing Gen access isn't happenening. We suggested it ages ago, but the BBRC have said no.
Then, Xtreme wrote:Did the BBRC give a reason for not considering it?
In October 2003, GalakStarscraper wrote:Three in fact:
1) There are not enough Strength skills to fill out an Ogre who never rolls anything but a normal roll.
2) They didn't like the idea of more than one Ogre to begin with the further it moves from the Ogre stat line the more it lacks appeal.
3) No desire to create a non-Stunty player without access to General.

Galak
Aren't points 1 & 3 still problems for the BBRC?

gaijin

1 has become at this point if you run out of normal skill a normal skill roll is a double. (so yes it changed)
2 hasn't changed ... JJ + others still really does not like more than one Ogre position.
3 .... has changed. Playtesting was starting to show balance problems with the current experimental team, so that made folks more open to a way to fix them.

And yes ... I tested the RS Ogre team a lot and I think it was very balanced ... but JJ and others REALLY don't like it ... so plan B was necessary.

Galak

harald · Post by **harald** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:55 pm

Fixing khmeri

Just remove Blitz-Ra and Throw-Ra and replace the team with
0-4 mummies
0-16 skeletons
and we would be all set.

Still a very crunchy team but a hell-uv-a-lot weaker than the 4 mummies coupled w/ 2 blitzers.

Having AV8 and MA6 on the blitz-ras I recon is a huge mistake. If there is to be any removal it should be the blitz-ras before anything else.

This team does not need those extra skill positions. It would be much funner to play and play against this team if they had to rely on regular skeletons except only 3 on the pitch at the same time.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:06 pm

But then you'd lose the "joke" names....

I've heard a lot of people suggest dropping the BlitzRas back to Av7 - but IMO its the mummies that are the problem so they are one ones needing a change.

Snarlton Heston · Post by **Snarlton Heston** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:14 pm

Itch, Itch, Itching is what I do best! You know, it is mosquito season!

I'll take ANYTHING at this point to get my ogres out of their box!

I just think that there are three skills for them right now:

Multiple Block, Guard, and Break Tackle...

They already have Mighty Blow, Piling On is now usless, and Stand firm is a trait also needing doubles.

IDEAS:

Create more strength skills.

OR

What about making Block a trait for the ogres? Let them have all the other general skills.

OR

What about adding to the roster 2 Ogre Blitzers with Block for 140K each?

Just some thoughts!

Snarlton Heston
-------------------

At the end of the day, it is still just a boardgame played with dice!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:43 pm

Sure Hands is just as bad if not worse than Block. The Khemri team is proving that AG 2 - Sure Hands can win games with just ST 3. Now give the same player ST 5. Bad news.

Also moving the Ogres to ST only access allows for Pro to return to a General skill and stops Ogres from getting Frenzy or Leader ... both items that can REALLY help out an Ogre team.

I'm a fellow Ogre player SH, so you aren't talking to someone who doesn't also want to see the Ogre team become official or who plays only Elfball.
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/Season3/T ... ffguyz.htm

I've already traded in Leader on my first Ogre in for Pass in order to test having ST only access on the team in Season 4 of the league coming up.

I honestly think the ST only access will work just fine to bring this team into the official rules come October. I'm confident enough in it working to allow the team to play in GenCon this way as well.

Galak

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:12 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:Sure Hands is just as bad if not worse than Block. The Khemri team is proving that AG 2 - Sure Hands can win games with just ST 3.

Haven't Chaos Dwarves been doing this for about 7 years?

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:13 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:I honestly think the ST only access will work just fine to bring this team into the official rules come October. I'm confident enough in it working to allow the team to play in GenCon this way as well.

Sounds good. Will this become an official rule for all Big Guys? Blood Bowl should benefit tremendously by such a ruling IMHO.

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:23 pm

ianwilliams wrote:I've heard a lot of people suggest dropping the BlitzRas back to Av7 - but IMO its the mummies that are the problem so they are one ones needing a change.

From my experience the Blitz-Ras are the khemrian key-players. AV 7 is far worse than AV 8 so that the significantly increased number of armour breaks (and therefore increased number of player-turnovers and less developed Blitz-Ras) should balance the team properly.